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#1 Sat, Oct 16, 2010 12:31 PM

h20dawg79
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Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Chris Rossi's Gates

In watching the below link of Chris Rossi, I can't help but notice how Cool his Pull out and Turn in is. #1. He begins his Pull out @ the 55's on every pass from -32 thru 41. #2. At a time when all you hear on the Forum boards and @ the Lake Is; "Get wide" "Get even with the Boat" "Get wide Man"...  Chris also does something else that I think is very special; He pulls out to a point maybe between the Mini course balls and the Reg. course Balls? (I don't know exactly, maybe Wade knows or Chris will tell us...)

Never the less, His Pull out point (not points) is always the same. That's Cool! I would like to simplify like that. (I think?!?!) How does this work? How is it done?

While we're all trying to ski lighter and with less Load (especially initially) and trying to designate the work zone (or Loading Zone) to be behind the boat. It would seem like this narrower pull out would help to avoid turning and Loading Too early and then getting pulled up or shot recklessly @ 1 Ball like a Cannon?  Again I must ask, How does he do it?  Does the turn in point change?

Begin Pull out at the same place.

Then use what to verify proper width?

Then what designates the Turn in pt.?

Does any of it change with rope Lengths?  if yes, What changes?



Very Cool stuff! cool


any thoughts?

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Sun, Oct 17, 2010 6:30 AM)


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#2 Sat, Oct 16, 2010 12:56 PM

2gofaster
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From: Cypress, Tx
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Posts: 337

Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

I wouldn't call CR's pullout narrow. If you pay attention to the handle on the 41 pass, for instance, it's in rougly the same place as his turn at 2 and 4.  So he is about as wide as you can get and up on the boat.  He can't arc the ski out any more than he does because when you roll out from the wash out you can't gain the momentum necessary to get the ski to arc out any farther.


Shane Hill

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#3 Sun, Oct 17, 2010 6:28 AM

h20dawg79
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From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

Ya, I'm not saying it's too narrow. But it's certainly a very short set up and a width that is far less aggresive then most. Seems like a very Good way to get consistancy w/o all the variables of a longer and wider set up... (he's also moving faster going into his turn in, w/o all the gliding and slowing of a typical P/O...)

In the video, watch the white water coming off the side of the Boat (lower left of screen) at his widest width of the pull out @ -32. Now watch the rest of the Balls 2,4,6 on that pass.

Now do the same thing on the -41 pass to me, this clearly shows a significant difference between Both P/O's and @ -41 he is much shorter (narrower) on his -41 P/O then the -32 P/O or the rest of the -41 2,4,6 Balls...  -well, that's my perception anyway!?!?

Anyone else see anything?


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#4 Sun, Oct 17, 2010 9:45 PM

greg
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Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

As a fellow LFF skiier, after many years of coaching from RFF pros and observing their gates, I have determined for my own sanity only to take "gates" coaching or advice from other LFF skiiers.  It is a totally different deal.  Case in point - Mapple can run full shortline passes with no pullout. 

I like what Seth Stisher does...many videos of him are available online for LFF gates.  My 2 cents.

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#5 Thu, Oct 21, 2010 6:08 AM

b-rad19
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From: Lafayette, LA
Registered: Fri, Mar 7, 2008
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Skis At: University of Louisiana-Lafayette
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Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

Check out Rossi's explanation from a while back:

My goal with gates is to accelerate from the starting point.  I used to focus on falling away (more forward) and catching the boats load when I reached the bottom of my fall.  This works fine but I found that my speed was developing too late so I was ending up too wide on the boat.  I focus now on getting into my accelerating position before starting my edge out for the gates.  Standing more center-to-back, engaging my hips forward, torquing from the trailing arm, and attempting to leave my ski more out in front of me during the first stage of the gate sets me up with a better line.
The starting point is the spot you stand in before edging out for the gates.  For me, it is as close to the wakes as possible without being in the dip.  You should not be standing out in the whitewash created from the spray of the boat.  I place 60% of my weight on my back foot before starting my edge out.  This allows my right hip to be forward with my legs fairly straight.  I focus on having my right hip connected to the handle and when I want to start my edge-out, I transition to my right hand (torque) and think about keeping the ski out in front of me while powering the left edge of the ski.  We want to be able to ski out on a tight line, so by keeping the ski more out in front of me, I keep the ski on a more realistic trajectory. 

The first stage of my gate is from the starting point to the edge change out for my gates.  We normally edge change in the course at the second wake.  My thought with the gates is that we are already starting wide of our preferred edge change location (2nd wake) so I am trying to get my speed and direction set earlier (first stage gets shorter in duration).  This gives me more time to ski away from the boat on my turning edge which helps me to keep a tight line and be able to roll in with speed.
For a right foot forward skier, if you are too front foot heavy in your stance for the gates, you will not be able to edge change early enough to ride a tight rope out to the apex.  Most skiers think they want to be really free from the boat to turn.  This is not the case.  What you are looking for is a tight rope (no bow in the line from pylon to handle) while you are extending away in the pre-turn.  At apex, you will feel tension from the pylon that will start to pull your inside hip forward, and you will slide into the handle.  There is zero rotation from the upper body as you ski into the power triangle.

Last edited by b-rad19 (Thu, Oct 21, 2010 6:15 AM)

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#6 Thu, Oct 21, 2010 2:57 PM

h20dawg79
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From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

greg wrote:

As a fellow LFF skiier, after many years of coaching from RFF pros and observing their gates, I have determined for my own sanity only to take "gates" coaching or advice from other LFF skiiers.  It is a totally different deal.  Case in point - Mapple can run full shortline passes with no pullout. 

I like what Seth Stisher does...many videos of him are available online for LFF gates.  My 2 cents.

I agree there are sometimes Huge disparities between LFF & RFF skiers. Gates are certainly one of them! I still feel that I can do better then the standard grip & Rip, along side the Boat pull out. I think Chris is really on to something that could be beneficial for me. I juz don't fully understand all the why's and the where's!!! ya, Seth has a smooth as Silk set up as well!cool


b-rad19,
There is some good stuff in that post. It helps to confirm some of what I suspected. Chris has a pretty Cool thing going on. -Maybe he would be better off Not sharing All of his active ingredients!!!wink


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#7 Sun, Oct 24, 2010 5:09 AM

ChrisRossi
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Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

B-Rad did the work for me.  Those are my gates as I see it.  Gates are an evolution.  I have been doing a OHG for 10 seasons now and this is where I've ended up.  Who know what it will morf to in the next 10 years!

Chris

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#8 Sun, Oct 24, 2010 6:53 AM

h20dawg79
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From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

ChrisRossi wrote:

B-Rad did the work for me.  Those are my gates as I see it.  Gates are an evolution.  I have been doing a OHG for 10 seasons now and this is where I've ended up.  Who know what it will morf to in the next 10 years!

Chris

Thanx Chris!

Are there any definitive start/stop points or visual cues that I could implement for:

#1. The Pull out Starting pt.?   (i.e. the 55's)

#2. The proper width?  (i.e. all lengths do not appear to be the same width?)

#3. The Turn in starting pt.? (i.e. when the Lt. gate buoy aligns with 1 buoy, etc...)

Thanx again!


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#9 Fri, Oct 29, 2010 5:14 AM

ChrisRossi
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Foot Forward: Right

Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

#1. The Pull out Starting pt.?   (i.e. the 55's)

I make my decision to start at about 6 feet before I get to the 55's.  I used to go later, but I like knowing that I have enough time to really let the ski finish its roll in from apex to handle without to push on the ski.  As soon as you push, you start to load up the ski.  This will come back to get you at the edge change.  The more load you build, the more direction you will lose after the edge change.

#2. The proper width?  (i.e. all lengths do not appear to be the same width?)

I don't really think about my width during an edge out.  The crucial component to success on gates is to be accelerating after the edge change before going to one hand.  If this comes at too wide of a point, you will have slack turning in and will load the line too much.  That's why some people think I am running a narrow gate.  I don't believe my gates are narrow.  I am just getting my speed to come earlier in the turn.  This is more like when you are skiing the course.

#3. The Turn in starting pt.? (i.e. when the Lt. gate buoy aligns with 1 buoy, etc...)

I don't use visual clues, at least I am not aware of them if I do.  Skiing is about making the best of where you are at.  You will never be in the exact same place on any gate.  Speed and direction will be slightly different.  Thus, your visual will be slightly different every time.  I focus on getting everything right on my way out to the apex.  From apex, I just feel the ski start to roll in and focus on allowing the ski to complete the turn.  By allowing it to finish, I end up in my stacked position with very little load.  There is no rushing through this phase.  So my only focal point is my starting position.  After that, the rest is set.  If I miss my gates early and feel like I did everything I wanted on the way out, then I know I should start my out a little later.  If I have a great out and end up late through the gates, I start slightly earlier.  I miss my gates at least 30% of the time in parctice now.  In the beginning of my one handed gate learning, I would miss my gates up to 80% of the time.  You have to be able to finish what you have started in order to learn where you will end up.  This allows you to build confidence in the gate.  So for me, its all about when I start out, not when I roll in.

Hope this helps.

Chris

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#10 Fri, Oct 29, 2010 5:40 AM

2gofaster
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From: Cypress, Tx
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Posts: 337

Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

That's very interesting Chris.  I've skied with Jodi half a dozen times latey when he's been in Texas and he is saying much the same thing...........that you guys(high end skiers) miss your gates 25-30% of the time in practice.  One of the hardest concepts to get has been that I should make the turn in based on water speed and nothing else. Then if I miss the gate, adjust where you roll out.  We've programmed ourselves to try to hit the gates every time for crying out loud! LOL.


Shane Hill

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#11 Fri, Oct 29, 2010 6:48 AM

h20dawg79
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From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

Thanx Chris,
Great Stuff right there! That makes a lot of sense. I can sure see some Killer advantages to your Gate technique. Though I am LFF, I am going to work with some of those principles next season. Being LFF. it is much harder to consistantly get a great line and ski angle on the off-side turn in/pull, it's harder to finesse and not over/under compensate and it is very easy to over Load and get pulled up after the edge change... 

But, just rolling in with more speed and not trying to foolishly get so freakin' Wide will be great starters!


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#12 Fri, Oct 29, 2010 8:16 AM

ChrisRossi
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Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

I would just like to say that there is no difference in gates based on which foot forward you are.  The concepts are the same and one is not any harder than the other.  If you make those road blocks in your head before you even start, then you just make your learning curve that much longer.  And just a FYI, if I could change to be lefty, I would.

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#13 Fri, Oct 29, 2010 10:20 AM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

Good Food for thought. Thanx!

I don't have near the issue during the off-side turn. But, this yr. I noticed a big disparity between my on & off-side pulls. Especially evident while doing off-side lean drills. I was Horrified at my tech. on the off-side lean drill! That made me more conscience of how much my Gates were lacking. I'm going to work on those right from the start next season on open water B4 I start complicating everything in the course...


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#14 Fri, Oct 29, 2010 6:21 PM

EdJohnson
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Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

Dawg,

Spend the winter watching Jamie B. videos. LFF works for him. What a great example of what Chris is talking about.

Good Luck,   ED

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#15 Fri, Oct 29, 2010 8:26 PM

danbirch
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From: Canyon Lake, CA
Registered: Mon, Nov 24, 2008
Posts: 75
Skis At: Canyon Lake, CA
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Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

Chris,  how would your gate change if you were to go 34.2 mph?

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#16 Sat, Oct 30, 2010 6:16 AM

h20dawg79
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From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

EdJohnson wrote:

Dawg,

Spend the winter watching Jamie B. videos. LFF works for him. What a great example of what Chris is talking about.

Good Luck,   ED

Thanx Ed! I'll check it out.

I'll have to do a lot of watching something this winter. I tore my Rt. (dominate) shoulder apart! (torn Rotator cuff in 2 places, Labrum tear, displacement, spur, etc...) aft. 11/15 I'll be doing a lot of watching the world pass by, for about 3-4 months!


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#17 Sat, Oct 30, 2010 9:03 AM

ChrisRossi
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Re: Chris Rossi's Gates

The only difference for 34 would be that I would start my edge out a little later.    Other than that, everything is the same.  It is easier to load the line at slower speeds, so you really have to focus getting the edge out right so that you can ski into the handle with as little load as possible.

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