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#1 Mon, Jun 29, 2009 3:13 AM

LeonJones
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Foot Forward: LFF

tail sitting on offside

I've developed a bad habit of dropping back on the tail while turning in for the gate (LFF)and coming out of the offside turn, which on the F1 just kills the pass. My best guesses are that I'm rushing the turn, not countering enough and not on the front foot enough. When I try to correct this, about half of the time I go OTF. Any thoughts? I'm running 15'-22' off at 32-34mph.

Thanks as always!

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#2 Mon, Jun 29, 2009 5:41 AM

BuoyChaser
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: Wed, May 16, 2007
Posts: 216
Skis At: Long Pond, Northwood NH
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Re: tail sitting on offside

are your friends noticing any "chatter" of your ski on the offside, I'm certainly struggling with the same thing as when I try to bring my weight forward by reaching with my right hand (thumb up) towards the boat to simulate that counter...

here's a link as what not to do, notice at the 1:00min mark on my 36-22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW5r0TmR6A0


2008 MC PS197 with ZO upgrade with 2011 Radar Senate C 67" working to smoke that 36-28 consistently in any tourney.

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#3 Mon, Jun 29, 2009 7:40 AM

2gofaster
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From: Cypress, Tx
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Posts: 337

Re: tail sitting on offside

Leon, Prior to the pregates, stand tall on that ski and get your hips up. I get all the way up so that you could draw a line between my shoulders hips and the ball of my front foot. If you start up like this with your hips up, your pullout is more efficient, the turn in is more efficient and you have a better chance of carrying this posture through the pass.  You want to be all up on the front of that ski as you turn in to get it to carve back under the rope and get in front of you.

Let's talk counter, because this is something I've hit upon recently. Skied with Marcus Brown and he told me I was countering with my shoulders but not my hips. I never thought about that before. So I asked him how do I open my hips up. He gave a great analogy. He said to imagine holding a coke can by the two ends and twisting it. What happens? It gets shorter. He said that counter-rotation doesn't begin at the waiste and end at the shoulders. It starts at the ankles and ends at the shoulders. Stand on flat ground in skiing position and twist your hips while allowing your ankles to flex forward. What happens? Your center of mass goes forward, without your shoulders having to lead it. Now twist from your waiste up to your shoulders. What happens? You fall back on the rear foot or you let your hips drop and your shoulders lead, especially on your offside. All of a sudden, after trying this little experiment, the light bulb went on and I understood counter rotation. The big secret is to do your complete counter movement and not drop your hips. You want to always be standing tall with those hips up.

Scott, in that segment two things happened that I noticed. One, that 2 ball at 1:00 in you hit some shallow rollback. Two, your hips are dropped back and you're just turning your shoulders a bit and reaching forward.  This is putting your shoulders ahead of your center of mass and leaves you in a less than optimum body position. Look at where your outside shoulder is in relation to the rope and inside shoulder. You should be able to draw a line between the pylon, handle, inside shoulder, and outside shoulder. If you stood tall and countered with your hips and shoulders, your mass would fall inside and forward of the turning circle of the ski and you'd drive it right through those rollers in a strong finish position. 

It wasn't that long ago that I was in the same boat as both of you.  Once the light bulb went on about both of those mechanics, I picked up 12 buoys in 3 weeks.
.


Shane Hill

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#4 Mon, Jun 29, 2009 10:07 AM

BuoyChaser
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: Wed, May 16, 2007
Posts: 216
Skis At: Long Pond, Northwood NH
Foot Forward: LFF

Re: tail sitting on offside

Yah, likin' the coke can analogy of the coke can, interesting. Thanks Shane. I know I've been thinking about my shoulders but forgetting the hips.

Hopefully get to try it out tonight/tomorrow if this rain ever stops in New England, total WINTER JET STREAM. Sick of Noreastahs.


2008 MC PS197 with ZO upgrade with 2011 Radar Senate C 67" working to smoke that 36-28 consistently in any tourney.

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#5 Wed, Jul 1, 2009 9:27 AM

JSKIER
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Re: tail sitting on offside

Slalom Guru-
interesting example...i don't get the coke can thing?  how does it getting "shorter" relate to what what you are trying to do by twisting from the ankles up?


thanks
jeff

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#6 Wed, Jul 1, 2009 12:27 PM

2gofaster
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Re: tail sitting on offside

Jeff, stand feet back to back like you would on a ski.  Now keep your hips up and twist your hips to one side. You can't twist your hips without flexing your knees and ankles.  As you do so, the distance from your hip bone to the ski shortens because the knees have actually moved forward as the ankles bend. Now, you can twist your shoulders without twisting your hips and then your height doesn't change. But more importantly, your mass doesn't move forward either.  When you counter with the hips, the ankle/knee flexion not only drives your center of mass forward, but it also lowers your center of gravity. An object with a lower center of gravity will rotate around it's axis quicker.  It will also do it with more stability.


Shane Hill

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#7 Wed, Jul 1, 2009 1:32 PM

JSKIER
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Re: tail sitting on offside

Shane-
ahhh...that makes much more sense.  i would think this is a MAJOR point that many people have not understood concerning counter rotation.  i have tried to counter my hips...but without really understanding that it starts from the ankles i think i was not doing it enough.  Thanks.  This helps.  My next question is then....WHEN does this counter start?  At the edge change i assume....?


Jeff

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#8 Wed, Jul 1, 2009 6:51 PM

2gofaster
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From: Cypress, Tx
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Re: tail sitting on offside

You're exactly right Jeff. I didn't understand it until just recently.  I wouldn't say the counter starts at the edge change. My thought is that at the edge change you face the shore and start to let the ski carry out from under you with both hands on the handle and your inside elbow in. This keeps tension on the handle and carries you outbound and gives you the width. I think the counter movement of the ankles, knees, hips and shoulders really starts as you reach that point where you have to release with the outer hand. The critical part is the hips. You have to keep those hips up and stand tall so that when the ski carves around the backside of the ball and you come back to the handle, that your position allows you to handle the angle and load that is generated. I'm finding that when I let my hips drop in the preturn, the momentum of my body mass going downcourse causes my upper body to get pulled up as  the ski sets.  When that happens, I lose all of that speed that I was trying to carry throught the apex of the turn.


Shane Hill

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#9 Thu, Jul 2, 2009 6:27 AM

JSKIER
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Re: tail sitting on offside

Shane-
yea i do feel like my hips drop back in the preturn and it is difficult to get them leading again after edge change without some contorted movements.  Matt Rini explained to me that you should allow the hips to come off the inside edge of the ski at edge change (this sets up the carve) and then with two hands on the handle rotate your hips and shoulders out (toward the shore)  this is what keeps you moving outward instead of downcourse.  My problem with all this is i can't get my hips coming up and leading in the pre-turn without just standing up on the ski and it being flat and going straight....so i'm not sure where this stems from. 

what do you mean by...you lose speed thru the turn as your upper body gets pulled up?  i see how you would lose speed if your hips are back...but not as you get pulled up...which is what i want to feel (standing tall) with the upper body verticle and countered going in and thru the turn..?

Jeff

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#10 Thu, Jul 2, 2009 9:39 PM

EdJohnson
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Re: tail sitting on offside

JSKIER,
     There is another way to look at this. Let the ski transition under you during the edge change. This is a product of resistance to the load of the boat  I call it "Twist and Resist." By resisting the torque of the boat your legs will compress (countering left when going right). Let your legs out slowly after the edge change, maintaining two hands on the handle. Allow the outside shoulder to go with the ski in an outbound direction. The start of counter-rotation. At the same time allow your inside hip and reach go to the inside of the turn. Standing tall will kill outbound direction by taking the ski off edge, going flat and narrow.
If you follow this by freezing the counter and sliding into the handle (no rotation), you will have a tight line (due to outbound direction), and have an incredible turn, accelerating from the apex. Simply drop twist at the hookup and repeat 5 more times.
     If you watch a video of Will Asher I believe you will understand this concept.
GOODE LUCK,   ED

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#11 Mon, Jul 6, 2009 1:19 PM

JSKIER
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Re: tail sitting on offside

Ed-
Lots of good thoughts there!  thanks!  i think i do most of them but not to a great degree...so my question is what thoughts would you take to the course first?  What i mean is...i can't think of all this at the same time and i have found that focusing on one thing leads me to do that better...but then doesn't help everything else flow right.  know what i mean?  So what would you say is "first things first?"  someone was explaining how countering from the ankles up will naturally bring your c/m forward....so would that be the best?  But then again you can counter your brains out but close off and load up against the boat at the finish if you don't continue leading with those hips....

Jeff

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#12 Mon, Jul 6, 2009 2:41 PM

EdJohnson
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Re: tail sitting on offside

JSKIER,
      When I use to ski old school I would only work on one thing at a time. However, with New School Technique,  I find that everything needs to go in a sequence. It is important to visualize your whole pass. I break it down into three areas. The pull out for the Gate, the turn in through one ball, then the rest of the course.
      As far as taking thoughts to the course as you mentioned I developed a Mantra to say in my  head that puts the sequence together for me. Find key words that will remind you of the proper sequence of moves to develop a flow. For me it is "Drop-Twist," Knees-Lean,"  "Punch-Counter-Slide." This covers everything I need to do, and each Key Word represents a visual image in my mind. After skiing I review a video of my set and look for the sequence.
      Mike Suyderhouds DVD, "West Coast Slalom," is excellent at breaking down the sequence into sections. I highly recommend it. After you understand all of that, going to Great Coaches such as Chris, Wade, Seth, Chet, Schnitz, Drew, Rini, etc. will help bring it all together.
Hope This Helps,  ED

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#13 Tue, Jul 7, 2009 9:43 AM

JSKIER
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Re: tail sitting on offside

Thanks Ed-
Yea i have studied the Suyderhoud DVD and skied with Marcus once.  I go down to see Drew and Rini a couple of times a year.  I always get hooked up there and then come home to the Chicago area and BOOM...back to my lock and load junk.  then i video and see all sorts of issues and try to fix one thing at a time but like you said...it needs to flow together.  what is your "knees-lean" sequence words?

i'll give that a shot.  the biggest thing i notice at my 28 vs any pro's is that i go from wake to buoyline with very little pre turn.  more of a edge to flat to edge/realease sequence.  what i'm not sure is is if it's a function of leading more with my hips going into the wakes (twist and resist) or not. 

thanks again
jeff

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#14 Tue, Jul 7, 2009 9:01 PM

EdJohnson
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Re: tail sitting on offside

Jeff,
     Your correct, it is a product of twist and resist. Go back to the hookup, after you slide into the handle and begin 2nd Gear acceleration. It is a product of being "Mass Forward" at the hookup before the boat is on you. The "Drop & Twist" at hookup causes unbelievable acceleration. Remember Marcus saying after hookup, " I open up even more."
     By countering even more headed towards the 2nd wake, "Twist and Resist," your legs should begin to compress under the pressure build up. This should result in the edge change under you. Do not pull up, let the boat pull you up keeping your elbows tight to your side. Two hands on the handle outbound. Slowly let out the compression to establish an outbound direction. You also want to start a forward lean, "Knees-Lean." When you start to feel the boat twisting your outside shoulder to the inside, let it go out with the ski by slowly releasing the outside hand. This is the start of counter-rotation. When you now reach with a forward lean it will help your hip go to the inside while your outside shoulder counters to help the ski continue outbound. Freeze the counter when at its max, ( increases as the line gets shorter ). Slide and do not rotate into the handle.
If you watch Mikes DVD section, "Marcus on Marcus," in slow-motion you should see what I am talking about.
Next time your in Orlando come by and I will be glad to help you with this It's a lot easier to show you than try to explain in a blog.
GOODE LUCK,  ED

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#15 Thu, Jul 9, 2009 1:23 PM

JSKIER
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Re: tail sitting on offside

ed-
Thanks!  i'll do that.  where are you located exactly?

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#16 Thu, Jul 9, 2009 2:10 PM

EdJohnson
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Re: tail sitting on offside

Jeff,
     Southeast Orlando, 10 mins from the Airport, on a private ski lake with 3 other tourn. skiers...ED

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#17 Thu, Jul 16, 2009 8:16 AM

Jim5
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Re: tail sitting on offside

To add a tip to what 2gofaster was saying about the counter starting way down at the ankles, I also skied with Marcus that same day. Out on the course his tip to me was to keep the trailing arm in tight to the vest. This makes your body nice and stable. It also "forces" your butt and hips up. I had a terrible problem with countering at the shoulders, and letting my hips and butt drop back behind me. Marcus's tip in the course was to tell me to start as I round 1-ball, as my right (trailing) hand comes back onto the handle, take my right (trailing) arm and stick my elbow hard into my vest. When I round 2-ball, stick my left elbow hard into my vest. After practicing this in the course, take it back to the gate and remember to stick the left arm in tight to the vest as you turn in just before you take load on the line. This worked for me. To such a point, that prior to that tip, I was able to run 6 bouys maybe once in a set at 15-off, 30mph. The next day, I ran six passes straight (nice and controlled, not lucky) and then next day after, upped the speed to 31 & 32. Add this inside tip of sticking the trailing elbow hard into the vest to all the other great explanation here and I promise, the other info will come more easily.

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#18 Thu, Jul 16, 2009 10:24 AM

Deke
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From: Telluride, CO
Registered: Thu, Apr 3, 2008
Posts: 126
Skis At: 15/34
Foot Forward: Right

Re: tail sitting on offside

Jim5 wrote:

Add this inside tip of sticking the trailing elbow hard into the vest to all the other great explanation here and I promise, the other info will come more easily.

Great tip.  I've been working on this stuff myself and have more or less come to this conclusion on my own.  Lots of good things result from this, including a proper edge change.  Thanks.

Deke

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#19 Fri, Jul 17, 2009 6:13 AM

Deke
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From: Telluride, CO
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Posts: 126
Skis At: 15/34
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Re: tail sitting on offside

Jim5 wrote:

Out on the course his tip to me was to keep the trailing arm in tight to the vest. This makes your body nice and stable. It also "forces" your butt and hips up.

I've always wondered about handle size in regards to staying tight to the vest.  12" always seemed so small, but it would really keep things aligned with your core.  Just thinkin' out loud...

Deke

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#20 Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:01 AM

EdJohnson
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Re: tail sitting on offside

They always say,   "Size doesn't matter, it's how you use it" !!!!!!!!!!

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