Why don't Pros use the Arm Guard? / Pro Ski Coach Water Ski Forum

tjo · #26 Fri, Jun 5, 2009 8:52 PM

I have communicated with Thomas via email several times as I've contemplated purchasing his product. His personal email communication is very professional and much different than the posts you see in the forums. I truly think his service would be top notch. I'm chalking the forum posts (see thewaterskiforum) up to entertainment I guess.

However, it does come across as though he's got an axe to grind and IMHO he ends up alienating some potential customers. Being less defensive and accusatory on the forums AND the creation of a website can only help future sales. It would be a shame to see all of the R&D work wasted by having another Company that wasn't first to market come in and capitalize on the marketing void.

Just my perspective.

h20dawg79 · #27 Sat, Jun 6, 2009 1:02 AM

Man, this thread is totally whack!!!

So, "WHY DON'T THE PRO'S USE THE DAMN THING"??? (just a silly thought!)

Thomas Wayne · #28 Sat, Jun 6, 2009 1:56 AM

h20dawg79 wrote:
Man, this thread is totally whack!!!

So, "WHY DON'T THE PRO'S USE THE DAMN THING"??? (just a silly thought!)

Actually, some do. It's not our place to discuss the names of our customers, but ARM-GUARDS are popping up here and there at major tournaments, and I have personally been contacted for sets by a number of very well known "pro's".

Having been through a catastrophic injury caused by an arm-through-handle fall, however, I don't give a damn what the pro's use. I use it and I always will, because I know first hand the possible consequences of NOT using it. (just a silly thought)

TW

h20dawg79 · #29 Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:16 AM

All righty then! -28 posts later and Kstateskier got a piece of the topic question answered!

The product does have merit and it seems like a relatively low cost piece of ski equip. or insurance that at the very least shouldn't hinder our skiing in any way and more importantly might save any one of us from a needless injury...

Thomas obviously has great passion for this type of product and I'm reasonably sure he would be just as adamant about this cause even if he was not manufacturing it, due to his personal exp. and injury... Never the less, maybe we could all just "Consider" our own unique selves and try to follow our Heart or for you "Tough guys" follow your gut on this one... Whether we like the messenger or the way he phrases the message or Not, he is still only the messenger and that doesn't change the message.

Strong leaders follow their hearts... (not their heads!)

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Sun, Jun 7, 2009 1:38 AM)

SethStisher · #30 Mon, Jun 8, 2009 2:20 AM

I just happened to be getting on to log a set and this thread caught my attention. I was completely entertained while I having a quick readthrough. I have to agree with tjo about TW's email communication...professional and appropriate. I have used the product and only stopped because I gave my whole setup to a young student who skis with us at H2Oz. I am in the process of getting a another one along with an order for a few for a client. I think it makes great sense. I can't attest to the fact that it works, because I never had the type of fall that would cause this sort of injury while I was using it. However, I did crash the other day and got my outside hand caught backwards in the handle and thought I had broken a finger. It still hurts, but turns out I am just a wimp with a low pain tolerance. Anyway, I truly believe the Arm Guard would have kept me hand out of harms way. WE don't sell these items yet at H2Osmosis, so I don't really have much reason to endorse the product other than to urge many of you to decrease the injury potential. Why not if it doesn't hinder your performance and if it isn't overly expensive.

On another note, TW, I am on your side on this one and I will have to say that somehow even though you may not intend it this way, your posts do come across with a troublesome tone. It doesn't personally bother me, but I can see how it gets people fired up...really none of my business though...THANKS for a great product.

Seth Stisher
H2Oz Training Center
www.h2osmosis.com
[email protected]

Deke · #31 Mon, Jun 8, 2009 1:23 PM

Blair wrote:
Thomas

I can under stand your reasoning... however i am one of those people that doesnt believe anything until i see it.. .

and not to sound like a total skeptic... but what you are preaching is sounding alot like snake oil to me... i have yet to see so much as a picture of your product, (all the links posted seem to be of the FM one which you state is not as good as yours)

and on that note i am going to call you out in the most professional way possible. Salesman to salesman

I understand your busy and hopefully that is because you are busy manufacturing many of these "arm guards"

but please for everyones sake... take a few minutes, it shouldnt take any longer than it takes you to type up one of your posts defending the reasoning for your product, and get us some pictures.

they say a picture is worth a thousand words... let us all see what you are selling...

and salesman to salesman... if you are able to convince me that i need a product without sounding preachy i am much more likely to buy it than when someone uses a preachy sales tactic.

I look forward to seeing pictures to help me form my opinion.

(note to mods, i tried to do this in the most professional way possible and in no way do i want this to start a war. if you do not feel that this post is constructive to the discussion please feel free to remove or edit it, if edited all i ask is that you acknowledge that it was edited)

No Edit Necessary!

I am amazed! Where have all you guys been? Did you completely miss all of the discussions that happened last year after Brett Yeager's death? There were also two serious arm accidents at the pro level last season that I recall, not to mention numerous people posting of their own handle injures last season and prior. TW's product has been discussed and shown at length and so have others.

It's your choice, but I believe anything you can do to prevent an injury due to an accident is worthwhile, especially if it doesn't hinder your performance. I use an Arm-Guard and I can tell you that you don't even know it is there while skiing. So why not? You wear a vest. You wear a wetsuit when the water is cold. You wear gloves and some wear liners as well. Oh, and how about the guys that wear a neoprene band to protect a broken eardrum. Injuries are the result of accidents, not necessarily a lack of skill. And as a matter of fact, the frequency of injuries may be higher at lower skill levels but I'll bet the severity and consequence is greater at more expert and extreme levels.

Blair, email TW directly for info on his product. I'm sure he will respond. We can discuss the concept and philosophy here but I don't think this is the place for a sales pitch or final judgement on any product. Also, search some of the other forums for more background. This stuff happens more than you think.

Deke

Deke · #32 Tue, Jun 9, 2009 1:08 AM

Well, little did any us know there was another head through handle tragedy this weekend. Please read about this
http://schnitzskis.com/newsflash.html

h20dawg79 · #33 Tue, Jun 9, 2009 11:50 AM

Deke wrote:
Well, little did any us know there was another head through handle tragedy this weekend. Please read about this
http://schnitzskis.com/newsflash.html

That is a total shame. -May God's peace be with his Friends and Family...

Jhughes · #34 Wed, Jun 10, 2009 2:07 AM

FWIW I use TW's product and it's absolutely fabulous. Only one guy in the boat doesn't like it and that's because he skis with clinchers. I was also wondering why the pros don't use it and/or haven't heard of it. I guess it's probably due to the fact that it's a word-of-mouth advertising campaign for the most part, rather than any practical reason.

Thomas Wayne · #35 Wed, Jun 10, 2009 7:53 AM

Jhughes,

We've had a few customers who use Clinchers, and some percentage of them do seem to require a bit more clearance than with regular gloves. Give your guy my email and let's open a dialog; I'd like to use him to try some different configurations until we find something that works for him. It'll be painless [for him] and it may help advance some aspects of our product. Plus he'll ultimately be safer on the water.

TW

Deke · #36 Wed, Jun 10, 2009 1:56 PM

Jhughes wrote:
...Only one guy in the boat doesn't like it and that's because he skis with clinchers.

Joel,

My wife uses Clinchers with Arm-Guard and is completely unaware of the Arm-Guard while skiing. OTOH, I could never get used to Clinchers in the first place!

Deke

kstateskier · #37 Wed, Jun 10, 2009 3:27 PM

Last night was the first night this week I've gotten to slalom after hearing about yet another skier die unexpectedly from putting their head through the handle. What tragic news... Anyway that "fear" was definitely in my head, although I ended up having one of the most productive sets of my season so far... I've decided to go ahead and give the Arm Guard a try. looking forward to giving this device a try. Will report back.

TW is you didn't get my email with my order let me know.

Be safe skiers!

kdcbarks · #38 Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:22 PM

TW - Is there any additional injury that could be caused by using the arm-guard? I am very interested in purchasing on for myself (even though I do not ski at very short line lengths) and in the process of doing some research came across this forum. It is obvious the types of injuries the arm-guard can prevent (and just thinking about those injuries makes me want to never ski again w/out one!), but has anyone looked at the possibilites of other injuries that may occur more frequently (i.e. fingers through the holes, etc.)? I assume it would be pretty hard to get a finger through one of the holes, but, stranger things have happened on the water.

I read almost this entire thread and I didn't see anyone ask this question. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

-Suz

Thomas Wayne · #39 Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:42 PM

On other forums I have posted photos showing that the largest holes on our ARM-GUARD safety panel are smaller than a U.S. dime, so the chances of getting a gloved finger - even for very tiny hands - into a hole are just about zero. At the customer's request we built a panel that had even smaller holes than that for a 7-year old skier.

In fact, EVERY ARM-GUARD is custom designed and built for the individual customer, so you could have any hole size you wanted - including holes configured in your initials if you want.

The design of the ARM-GUARD is meant to keep body parts out, and allow them easy release (if they ever enter the opening in the first place). When I caught my arm in the bridle - suffering a catastrophic injury - I was wearing HO Talon gloves. If you are familiar with these gloves you'll know that they have a myriad of straps and buckles, and I would have bet anything that you'd more likely tear my entire hand off before you could remove the glove without unbuckling it. Nevertheless, when the handle broke my humerus it was pulled down my arm and stripped that glove off without so much as a single broken finger or bruised knuckle.

Having experienced that incredible force I know that the high-quality, load-rated zip-ties we provide with the ARM-GUARD system will pop immediately if need be, and we consider it virtually impossible for the ARM-GUARD to impede your release, should you be so unlikely as to get your hand caught in the small remaining opening.

TW

kdcbarks · #40 Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:48 AM

TW - Thanks for the information. It is reasurring to hear all of the thought that has gone into making this device safe. I have folks at my club that are interested in seeing how the ARM-GUARD works and how easy it is to ski with. I am sure we will be ordering soon.

-Suz

kstateskier · #41 Tue, Jun 23, 2009 2:25 PM

I'd just like to say I received my Arm-Guard in the mail yesterday from TW - it was cut perfect and came with a great set of instructions and information as well as extra zip ties. Overall a really nice product! Put it on my handle and went out and ski'd with it. First set was a learning experience - I kept hitting the guard with my right hand. Second set I moved the guard down more closer to the center of the V on the bridal (Actually over it) I think I had installed too high on the handle as well as I was trying to keep it centered inside the plastic tubing (probably not correct). Anyway by moving it over the V that gave me another half inch of clearance. Second set ran a new PB 4@32 (58K) and never once touched the guard...

Is it worth $55? Its pricey but its a nicely built product and if it saves my life or saves me from major injury someday that is something that's really hard to put a price tag on.

Thanks TWayne