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#1 Fri, May 29, 2009 7:49 AM

matuszewski
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From: Windham, NH
Registered: Thu, Aug 14, 2008
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carving the turn

Quick question on people's thoughts for best way to carve the turn.... 

Relating back to being countered and snow skiing for a moment, in snow skiing the carving methodology is to move your knee(s) to the inside of the turn to roll the ski on edge and carve the turn.  This starts with the right amount of fore/aft balance and toe pressure.  As I continue to work on mastering this technique on the water I was wondering what was more effective/efficient in water skiing - using the knees or using the hips.  From what I have read alot has been said about moving our center of mass forward and inward during the turn and/or at the apex of the turn (again assuming the correct amount of fore/aft balance in the preturn) as such the hips play big role in this.  However, assuming the proper pre-turn postion and weight distribution, would it not be a similar movement as on snow at this point to role the ski on edge by using the knees?  Only difference is on one ski, the front foot controls the off-side edge and the back controls the on-side edge instead of having one ski for each turn.  To date personally I haven't really thought of it this way and have tried to accomplish the finishing of the turn with a proper lean - not sure that this is right, just what I have done.  As my skiing progresses it's clear to me that my carving efficiency will need to improve also (or vice versa).  Anway, just wanted to hear some thoughts on how you all do it.

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#2 Fri, May 29, 2009 9:28 AM

2gofaster
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From: Cypress, Tx
Registered: Sun, Jun 1, 2008
Posts: 337

Re: carving the turn

The big difference is that your knees are side by side when snow skiing. So rolling them one way or the other is no issue. When your on a slalom ski with your feet in line, I can't see how you could do that without sending your upper body mass outside the turning circle.


Shane Hill

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#3 Fri, May 29, 2009 12:38 PM

StevenHaines
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From: Canyon Lake Ca.
Registered: Mon, Jun 9, 2008
Posts: 152
Skis At: Canyon Lake, Ca.
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Re: carving the turn

I don't know if this will help, but on ballofspray.com, John Horton posted a video of the coaching that he recieved from Seth Stisher. The video coaching looks to be a great way to get the personalized attention that you (we) need! Some of Seth's recommendations might work for you. A close friend of mine ski's with Wade Williams and as far as I can tell, Wade sounds like he a great coach! My buddy's skiing has improved DRASTICALLY!!!

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#4 Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:39 PM

jbski
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Re: carving the turn

The only time you initiate a carving turn in snow skiing with the knees only is at very slow speeds or for a very short-radius and short-duration turn. Initiating with knees only puts you in a weak and vulnerable position that is short-lived. Look at World Cup slalom turns (a short-radius and relatively short-duration turn) - most of the angulation is coming from the hip and lower torso. At higher speeds you need to move your mass inside the skis (and forward preferably) or you will not be able to withstand the centrifigul force and will "high side" your turn. Given that in slalom water skiing all of our turns are relatively high speed, you wouldn't initiate a turn with your knees only. Besides, at what point other than in a traditional gate entry are you on a flat ski where you could actually initiate a turn with your knees only? As soon as your ski changes edges you have essentially initiated a new turn. If you are referring to the finish of a turn as in coming back to the handle from the turn's apex, then you already have your mass traveling on a line inside your ski and you don't need to initiate anything. At this point you might add to the edge angle of your ski with your hips or knees to decrease the radius of the turn (is this what you are referring to?). I have played around with this some. When approaching the bouy your mass is already inside your ski, your ski is already on edge and you are already already turning, so add some edge angle if you want, but for the most part, ride the ski through the turn.
Jim

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#5 Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:31 AM

matuszewski
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Re: carving the turn

Good points, and yes I am utlimately refferring to the finish of the turn and coming back to the handle by continuing to carve.  I am personally working on fighting the tendency to pull too early and am trying to think about carving the ski back to the first wake, then pulling through the 2nd.  I'm thinking that extra edge angle while continuing to carve back to the first wake will help - wasn't sure if this was a concious thought/lower body movement that people incorporated into thier skiing, or if it was more as you suggest to just ride the ski through the turn at this point, having already created the appropriate turn and angle.  Currently I just ride the ski, but was thinking about trying this and wasn't sure if i was going in the wrong direction.  I do agree with the previous post about Wade - I skied with him several years ago, but its been a while since I've had the chance - seems like it might be in my future.

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#6 Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:35 PM

ColinBuchanan
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Slalom Mentor
From: Lake Norman, NC
Registered: Tue, Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 175
Skis At: SkiTek
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Re: carving the turn

When thinking about the finish of a turn, remember that any pull that you make is going to be against a 3000 lb. boat moving down course at whatever speed you ski at.  Nobody is strong enough to overcome the boat, all you can do is use it for support by maintaining a tight line through the turn and then falling back into the handle without trying to take anything from the boat other than support for your own bodyweight. By trusting all of your balance to the rope, you free up your ski to carve the turn that it wants to resulting in the correct amount of angle back into the wakes after an arcing/ continuous turn. Don't know if this makes sense but I learned it from those better than me. Wade is an excellent coach and I hope you get the chance to ski with him.

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#7 Tue, Jun 2, 2009 4:44 PM

JAS
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Re: carving the turn

Check this video of Chris out  (24sec -27sec). Best visual that I have seen of carving a turn and hook up.



JAS

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#8 Wed, Jun 3, 2009 7:41 AM

matuszewski
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Re: carving the turn

so smooth...

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#9 Sun, Jun 7, 2009 10:03 AM

H20SkiGirl
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From: Eagle Point, Oregon
Registered: Sat, Mar 21, 2009
Posts: 63
Skis At: Pulligan Pond
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Re: carving the turn

I want to carve like that...  I watched rossi's form and he really opened up or countered in the turn...  Patience is the key here as well... Nice video!


Observe, Listen, Learn, Share and Grow, but most of all have fun~

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#10 Mon, Jun 8, 2009 6:12 AM

ChrisRossi
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Pro Skier
From: Orlando
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 506
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Re: carving the turn

The key is to see what you want to do before trying to do it.  That is the reason that we made the film Slash.  Watch the skiers in there and watch segments in slow motion to see what's happening.

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