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#1 Sat, Feb 7, 2009 3:42 AM

sszost
Karma:   
Regular

Reflex vs. Fogman

I am looking for a binding that will release. I have broke my rt leg (rt leg fwd) the last 2-years in a row. 2-years ago it broke when the tail of the ski popped out around 5-ball. My back foot came out, the tip rolled and caught the water, and snapped my tib and fib. Last year I was wearing Connelly drafts, double boots, and just broke the tib. I'm tired of cutting summer and the ski season short, and I'm very tired of crutches. Last year I was skiing a 67" F1, and really like it. I have seen on Schnitzskis that a few more pro's have started skiing the Reflex lately. Reflex are very expensive, but if these are the best bindings out there, and I can ski a whole season in one piece, they will be worth the price. Your input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

#2 Sat, Feb 7, 2009 3:09 PM

StevenHaines
Karma:   11 
Slalom Mentor
Skis At: Canyon Lake, Ca.
Foot Forward: right

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

Both of those binding systems are great! You might also look at the Radar system. I've been using the Fluid Motion system for the past 4 years with excellant results. I think they have a demo / try before program. Check it out

 

#3 Sat, Feb 7, 2009 4:50 PM

ChrisRossi
Karma:   
Pro Skier
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

I have skied both the Reflex and Fogman systems.  Most recently was the Reflex.  This system is great for skiers who use a toe loop or for skiers coming off rubber boots.  I had a hard time running a rubber boot in the back as I am used to more support.  The Fogman system would be for guys looking for double hardshell set up.  Both systems are good so you just need to pick the one that suites your skiing. 
     I run the Radar RS1 boots.  They are the best combo of power, control, and what I like to call "skiability".

 

#4 Thu, Feb 12, 2009 3:31 PM

TomHenderson
Karma:   
Pro Skier
Foot Forward: Lefty

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

I would second trying out the Fluid Motions.  I started riding the Evolution Series bindings last year and I must say they are my favorite bindings to date.  I haven't felt this safe in a binding since I was on combos.  Plus the performance side of the bindings are unreal.  Last year was the first year in about 5 seasons that I didn't break my ankle at least once (I have no clue how many times I have broken it).  If you want a binding that has both performance and safety, in my opinion these are your best bet.

 

#5 Sat, Mar 7, 2009 4:50 PM

sprayman
Karma:   
Rookie

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

Hi all,
2 cents here.
I have broken my foot with neoprene bindings. 
I am currently on Fluid Motion bindings.  2 years ago i went OTF and sprained BOTH my ankles at the same time.  My front foot I now refer to as almost being pulled off.  The bindings did release AFTER the damage was done.  One ankle now twice the size of the other....*L* (permantly)
I still use the Fluid Motion system, yet I have reduced the velcro to half. 
Just sharing a little of my experience.
Someday maybe there will be a fail safe system. 
smile

 

#6 Tue, Mar 17, 2009 10:26 PM

sszost
Karma:   
Regular

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

Sprayman
Thanks for the input. Are you on the E-series FMs like h20skeeboy? I am not that familiar with FM. I don't know anyone who skis on them. I read the manual for the E-series and didn't see anything about velcro. Let me know.
Thanks again.

 

#7 Thu, Mar 19, 2009 1:37 AM

TomHenderson
Karma:   
Pro Skier
Foot Forward: Lefty

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

sszost it sounds like Sprayman was on the Quatro Double 6 (since he mentioned reducing the amount of velcro).  Both systems are very good as I have used both of them. The E series saves a bit of weight and they are easier to adjust (in my opinion) than the Double 6.  Hopes this helps.
Tom

 

#8 Sat, Mar 21, 2009 7:16 PM

sszost
Karma:   
Regular

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

Hey Tom
Thanks for your help. The ice is off the lake here, and I'm getting the boat ready to go today. I hope everyone has a great season. Thanks again.
Steve

 

#9 Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:31 AM

mike55
Karma:   
Local

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

just ordered the FM "E" series single front on Pauls custom plate (no velcro). The cuff releases and the inner boot comes out with the cuff at time of release. I use a rear slip and debated between the reflex with its hardwear and the simplicity of the Evolution series from Fluid Motion. Pauls site has a video demo of the new E series design and the release function. Both Reflex and FM have a hopefully safer alternative for a rear toe slip guy like myself. Differences in opinions about liners exist and FM's site covers the universe in that area. The thicker vs thiner debate and in what area do you make it thiner...all good for the sport. Mounting mine on a new 09' RCX! Giving it the nod over the A1.

 

#10 Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:52 AM

Boody38
Karma:   
Local

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

The safest bindings are the FM quattros.  I know a dozen or so skiers that use them, they work well.  I was on them for many years.

The Fogmans are also safe, but my buddy had some problems with the plate bending and the bindings rocking side to due to play in the set up.

The Goodes are safe, but I am not sold on the interlock mount.  You need to use a mallet to pound them back in place and from what I know about carbon fiber (on the ski), that banging can damage it.  Plust we have all heard the prelease horror stories.

A lot of people love the RS-1s but I wasn't one of them.

I am on the FM E series and I really like them.  I have not been on them very long relatively speaking, but they release well.

Good luck.

Last edited by Boody38 (Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:53 AM)

 

#11 Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:07 PM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

Any binding can be dangerous or safe.

"The safest bindings" are none at all. If you fall the wrong way, you will hurt yourself regardless of what equipment you are using.

The safest way to fall is to tuck and roll and to release your ski from the water. If you're in the process of falling at the finish of the turn, and you begin to exert more pressure on your ski (thus sticking it more into the water) you are increasing the risk of injury. I have broke my ankle trying to crush the finish of the turn before.

If you allow the force of a fall to go down your legs into the ski, you aren't releasing from anything. It's like jumping out of a second story building. You're going to get hurt. If you know you're going to fall, the first thing I do is get my torso in the water and my ski OUT of the water so it can't get stuck and torque my ankles in a way that's no good.

In my experience, the FMs are the most prone to pre-releasing. The Goodes have a tendency to also pre-release when the velcro gets worn out. Like any other hardshell release system, this is a matter of dialing in your setup --- and then, As with any binding system, you need to be meticulous in checking your set up to make sure you dont have a failure while skiing = pre-release. If you're using a system with velcro, and the velcro is peeling back, DONT SKI ON IT. Replace the velcro or you are asking for it big time.

I've skied on the Fogmans for almost 10 years and I've pre-released just a couple times. Any play in the setup is due to a bad mount job -- which is really easy to do. I've probably mounted fogmans on 50 different skis, and had a great mount job (no play!) 15 times. Measure 20 times and drill once. And when you measure the 20th time you probably should measure a few more times before you drill it.

The newest Fluid Motions look great but I haven't tried them.

IMO, The reflex is by far the most reliable release system. Easy to set, easy to take care of. Ofcourse, it's only a one-boot setup. (not recommending a double reflex to anyone).

Offline

 

#12 Tue, Apr 21, 2009 12:26 AM

miski
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
Skis At: Jepawhit, Lyons, SkiTec
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

On FM's - I got on the Quatro doubles in March - changed from Wiley ProBuild front & rear. Have 9 sets on them and am feeling very good about the move.

My choice was based on what looked like the safest package for a nearly used up front ankle. I clobbered it at least 3 times last year by sailing out the back off the wakes, skipping on my upper body, but at mach 1 the tip eventually dug in... every time I bent my ankle too far forward and either didn't come out, or only partially came out of my Wiley.

In these crunches, the force was primarily down on the front of my front foot - so I like the idea of the two plate system that could release at my front heal and automatically release the rear plate. The Fogmans would be nice in that you couldn't bang a plate into your opposite shin on release, but I'm not sure it would release that easily in the type of fall I've gotten banged up on. I have an RS1 (for sale), but couldn't get it to fit my thinner foot w/o crunching my toes and it doesn't really limit ankle forward flex much w/o tightening the laces way up.

On the FM66, I haven't had that type of fall yet, but did pre-release twice - Wade was pulling me. The FM recommended setting is a preload of >3.5, but I was cautious and went with 2.5 to start. After the first release, I went up to 3, then after skiing a little harder and getting another release, am up to the recomended 3.5. I have to check my PSC ski log wink, but I think I have 3-4 sets on them since w/o a release. Both pre-releases were just easy tumbles at the apex building load on the front of the ski. Each time I didn't even realize my ski was off until I was in the water and I could move my feet relative to each other. At this point, I am pretty happy with the safety aspect.

Going to hardshells from rubber was crazy at first - it made my ski very reactive - like getting in a go-kart straight from a pickup truck. Right away on the pullout, it was really easy to get my ski porpoising and it still does it on my first pass after not skiing for awhile, but when I concentrate on being smooth, it is no problem. Same for the rest of the pass - smooth movements get good results, and I expect that this will help my skiing all by itself. The rear boot I got is cut down to be relatively flexible - I haven't been running the buckles real tight and I can feel my heel lifting.

The installation was a little tricky with the pin mounting on a plate onto another plate... also tight clearance around most of the fasteners. Paul Jager was a big help here though, and once I figured out I didn't need to add any new ski inserts and I got started, it only took ~1-1.5 hrs. I feel like I did pretty well figuring out the fore-aft position - I stood on a 1.5" dowel w/ my Willy plate and found the balance point, then marked the plate and measured where this was on my ski. Then I marked the FM front plate the same way, and put the mark in the same spot on the ski.

Cheers,
DL

http://www.proskicoach.com/forum/uploads/thumbs/4256_imag0061.jpg

 

#13 Tue, Apr 21, 2009 6:09 AM

Boody38
Karma:   
Local

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

Interesting on the two pre-releases, but good that you were in the turn and not going accross the wake.  I was on them for 5 seasons and had one pre-release when I first got them because I had em set up wrong.  We have several sets in our group and I have not seen any pre-release.   I even skied on them with no velcro for a couple weekends with no issues, but would not advise it.

Miski, I had mine set so you couldn't click the back in by stepping on the heal, I had to put the front and back in, then drop it from the center if that makes sense. 

I agree with Wade that you can still get hurt on any system, but I disagree that they are all equal.  There are some that are safer than others.  The FMs quattros are not perfect but they are the safest binding system available in my opinion.

 

#14 Mon, May 4, 2009 2:16 AM

KM
Karma:   
Regular
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

I have the G-10 Fogman plate which replaces the aluminum plate.  It is lighter, more flexible, and (in my opinion) safer.  There are two 1.5" x 1" pockets on the underside, middle of the plate with 3M Dual Lock which totally eliminates the forward-back play.

I also have the thinner (0.093" thick) G-10 adapter plate which eliminates the need to drill into the ski to mount the release units.  Great for skis without inserts such as Goode and Warp and also preserves the resale value of an undrilled ski.

 

#15 Mon, May 18, 2009 12:05 AM

Griff
Karma:   
Slasher
Skis At: Richmond Water Ski Club
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

KM wrote:

I have the G-10 Fogman plate which replaces the aluminum plate.  It is lighter, more flexible, and (in my opinion) safer.  There are two 1.5" x 1" pockets on the underside, middle of the plate with 3M Dual Lock which totally eliminates the forward-back play.

I also have the thinner (0.093" thick) G-10 adapter plate which eliminates the need to drill into the ski to mount the release units.  Great for skis without inserts such as Goode and Warp and also preserves the resale value of an undrilled ski.

KM,
Do you have any pics of your set-up?  Is it working well for you? Are they comfortable? Have you relaeased in them yet? 

I have been trying for a couple of years to go to hardshells but I find it hard to invest that much money in something you can't even tryout.

What I am looking for:
I do not desire to drill my ski.
I want to be able to move it from one ski to another, if I change skis.
I want to avoid jamming my feet back towards my shin thus straining my ligaments and tendons.
I would like a more sturdy feeling from side to side than rubber boots.
I want a good release system (both feet together seems like the best system but not mandatory)
I want it to be comfortable.

Anyone else have suggestions?

Griff

 

#16 Mon, May 18, 2009 1:00 PM

LHSkier
Karma:   
Rookie

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

Griff have you checked with your fellow ski club members yet?  Dave and Paul both have home made G10 1/8" plates made for their hardshells that does away with the need to drill their ski.  I believe they are using one G10 plate with interlock strips that is screwed to the ski.  The other G10 plate has interlock and is screwed to the rollerblade bindings.  Seth has replaced the aluminum plate on his Fogmans with G10 material.  It looks nice but it looks like it came from the 1/4" G10 material.  I did not think to ask him if it worked since I didn't think he would be using it if it didn't work. 

Adam

 

#17 Mon, May 18, 2009 7:16 PM

Griff
Karma:   
Slasher
Skis At: Richmond Water Ski Club
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Reflex vs. Fogman

Thanks Adam.

 

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