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Grip Question / Pro Ski Coach Water Ski Forum
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#26 Sun, Jan 25, 2009 9:31 PM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Grip Question

Tjo--

Glad to hear that your grip swap worked out for you. I still believe in all the complicated stuff, and I still think the "proper" grip does just what you said... Makes tour 'weak' side strong and your 'strong' side fair.

Thanks for reading!

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#27 Mon, Jan 26, 2009 8:06 AM

tjo
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Draper, UT
Registered: Wed, Apr 23, 2008
Posts: 197
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Grip Question

Thanks Wade.  I look forward to the day when I am ready for the more complicated stuff.  May have to justify a trip to SkiTek to understand it though smile   

Also, for the record I am now RFF with RHO/LHU (in case anyone was wondering).


Travis Ogden

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#28 Tue, Jan 27, 2009 5:50 AM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Grip Question

I respectfully agree and concur, that during my own experimentations with both Grips; -The Lpu /Rpd is also the best grip for me, -a right hander/ LFF... And Respectfully, No comment on the "open shoulder thing"... As stated, I feel most pic's. & vid's. reflect a more vertical handle  during the most crucial parts of the turn   -where this  "strengthening" would need to take place to have its intended  effect... (with "strengthening the weak side" being the foremost claim and subsequent Premise for this "Proper" grip theory...)

I also believe for a right hander, Rt. palm down is great when beginning the "Pull" aspect and "pushing the handle down".  As I fall back and "hang" as one hanging from a pull up bar. (hanging, not pulling up) This palm down position on your "Dominate arm" incorporates your stronger and More Effecient "Triceps" muscle and Diminishes the tendency to use  your Pulling "Biceps"muscle. Which for me, helps to reduce my tendency and ability to try to "Pull up or Against," and/or out muscle the boat...

I am without doubt, that this RPD/LPU grip is also what I would use "if" I Skied RFF... (Which gave me another interesting thought); "How much better could someone BECOME if they spent a fair amount of time specifically practicing with their "OTHER" foot forward"??? If one became proficient enough to ski at say, an honest 50-60% of their normal stance, Might this translate into a possible 5 or 10% increase in over all proficiency and ability of their normal scores or performance??? ( adding only 2% to 42 ft. is 10" -just call it 43 ft off...) Sounds silly maybe, but the Great Andy Mapple didn't get great by only running the course. Being a true innovator and a real competitors, competitor, I think he prides himself on mastering most anything that will float!!! ( talk about Off Setting Your Weaknesses and then Eliminating them all at the same time!)

Speaking of Great Professionals, Besides Wade & Chris, "I wonder where all the others have been hanging out during this very Cool Thread"...

                                            hmm  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Tue, Jan 27, 2009 11:53 PM)


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#29 Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:49 AM

SethStisher
Karma:   
Pro Skier
From: Charleston, SC
Registered: Fri, Oct 31, 2008
Posts: 33
Foot Forward: Lefty
Website

Re: Grip Question

Hey guys.  I just want to first compliment Wade and Rossi on having one of the best forums in the business.  This forum leaves out all of the bulls#*t that the others have.  I suspect that everyone who reads this is interest in learning more, growing the sport, and not simply trying to pretend they are the know-all, end-all of the sport.

That having been said, one of the guys who posted on the is forum asked me to weigh in with my thoughts.  Pursuant to receiving his email, I read the ENTIRE thread...wow!  You guys have really covered this one thoroughly.  I think that's cool, although quite time-consuming.  Anyway, rather than directly relate to anyone's specific questions or ideas, I want to spell out my philosophy relative to all of this stuff.  I think Wade and Chris covered some great stuff (not that anyone needs me to verify that as their resumes and knowledge speak for themselves).  I also think the rest of you have added some great stuff and evoke some great thoughts as well.

Here is my synopsis (bear in mind this is and always will be an opinion, but I feel as though there is some basis, background, facts, and field-testing to back it all up):

STANCE:
This has been touched on with opposing ideas through this thread, but I want to clarify a few things first (that I consider facts).  Having grown up in an area of the country where football, basketball, baseball, soccer, tennis, golf, etc. were the prevalent sports, I find it boldly apparent that 99% of Right handed athletes that have experience in these sports have a dominate left foot/leg.  This is the plant leg in soccer, the front leg in baseball, golf and tennis (for a forehand).  In these sports you finish your swing with most of your weight over the front foot.  This is what Andy was saying in theory.  9 uses (but perhaps in a different way), the power in throwing a baseball come largely from trunk rotation but finishes strong over the front foot (Left foot for a right handed pitcher).

To add to this using the "throwing" analogy that h2odawg7

Relative to waterskiing I believe the front foot is more dominant and here is why.  If you use your rear foot predominantly, yes you may be able to use the fin and tail of the ski as a rudder, but you also effect pressure on the ski that limits its ability to move.  When too much force is placed on the tail of the ski through the turn, the ski stops and the tip rises.  A more effective way (and Chris has discussed this on several other threads in various ways and is in fact one of the innovators of this concept in my opinion) to create velocity (movement in a particular direction) on a ski is to have that ski carve for you.  This can be achieved by moving your center of mass in the desired direction of travel...which creates pressure on the leading inside edge of the ski which actually allows the ski to carve through the turn rather than placing undue pressure on the ski by forcing the tail of the ski to move through the water (i.e. backfoot dominant pressure).  Quite simply, stand over the front foot through the apex of the turn enough such that the ski will find its way back towards the center of the course based on the design of the ski and not a tremendous amount of force on the ski.

HAND ORIENTATION IN THE TURN:
People who play the ball sports I mentioned must have their opposite palm up (so a right handed batter finishes strong on the left leg and swings with the right palm up.  This is predominantly due to the fact that with the right palm up/open it is easier to rotate to the left (this is what Rossi discussed relative to the turn and being open on your offside.  In waterskiing, even though you guys have discussed the handle being largely vertical in the turns, I personally have it vertical on my good side and palm up on my off side.  My hand grip helps this...I am LFF/RPU.  I think even for those skiers who don't move the handle going into the apex of the turn, a LPU skier has the handle anywhere from vertical to palm up through the 1-3-5 turn and anywhere from vertical to palm down through the 2-4-6 turn and the opposite for a skier who is RPU.  The handle has to be slightly off of vertical to make a good connection with it out of the turn.

HAND ORIENTATION THROUGH THE WAKES:
When the leading palm is up during the wake crossing phase, the skier will always be more able to maintain a countered and balanced through the wakes and keep your body between you and the load from the boat.  We are not actually in a tug of war with the boat...things are much more dynamic than in a tug of war and in this case we are using the boat to create our speed and energy and shouldn't be fighting the boat.  Rossie does this so well and makes things look so much more effortless than jackasses like me.

This is my philosophy, but I feel like there are some concrete ideas here that we can all agree on.  Simply put, Wade is right when he says that if you are dominant on your back foot, maybe you should have the opposite hand orientation.  There are so many factors to this whole game that one is dependent on the other.  This sport is so dynamic that it is nearly impossible to assess one aspect of your skiing whether it be stance, grip, rhythm, gates, etc. without spilling over into another area.

At the end of the day we are all athletic geeks which makes it so much fun...a little bit of science, a little bit of athletics, and a little bit of finesses.

IF you read this, thanks for taking the time to read my long winded post.  Hoe to ski with some of you in the future.

Have a blast!

Seth Stisher
seth@h2osmosis.com
www.h2osmosis.com


Seth Stisher
seth@h2osmosis.com
www.h2oztrainingcenter.com and www.h2oproshop.com
Click here for virtual coaching:  www.proskicoach.com/pros/seth_stisher/

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#30 Thu, Jan 29, 2009 1:30 PM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Grip Question

Sweeet.. That was comprehensive!

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#31 Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:21 PM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Grip Question

ozskier wrote:

Hey guys.  I just want to first compliment Wade and Rossi on having one of the best forums in the business.  This forum leaves out all of the bulls#*t that the others have.  I suspect that everyone who reads this is interest in learning more, growing the sport, and not simply trying to pretend they are the know-all, end-all of the sport.

I couldn't agree more!   Thank you Wade, Chris and Seth for bringing this topic full circle...

Thank you PSC members for having great patience with me. As I was being a bit of a pest and the Devils advocate at times...I am Sorry and I hope I didn't come off  sounding like the typical forum "know it all," as that was never my intention...(I'm Not)  But, "I Did have an Agenda", and that was always and only, to keep on pushing & prodding until we got to the Bottom (or as close as humanly possible) of this topic with a hard look from all angles at some real Compelling info...  -"mission accomplished"...smile

IMO,  Concerning this Particular topic, -"This is the Thread all other Forums will begin to Quote from"...



This Thread is yet another Great Example of Good People Working Together for a Common Cause and Once Again Demonstrating the Class and Dedication of Pro Ski Coach.com

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:22 PM)


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#32 Sun, Feb 1, 2009 1:55 PM

ChrisRossi
Karma:   
Pro Skier
From: Orlando
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 506
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Grip Question

Thanks for the compliments and thanks to everyone who is a member of this forum.

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