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#1 Thu, Nov 27, 2008 2:32 PM

mfcardoni
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Foot Forward: Left

Wing

Hello Chris & Wade,
First time poster, but avid reader of this great resource...Thank you!

On and off skier since forever. Self taught for years - old school. Now finding West Coast counter-rotational concepts very compelling, and your somewhat hybrid synthesis even more-so. So I am getting better...

It was suggested to me years ago that the best setting for the Wing, was to set it on the bottom of the lake...so it has been there since, with no regrets...I do not yet run deep shortline, but right now it is all about perfecting technique with a lot of freeskiing at different lengths and speeds.

My question to you:  Please offer me the correct perspectives as to how I ought to consider the purpose and use of a Wing  --  I place "correct technique" at the top of my list of imperatives, so for me the wing cannot be a bandaid  --  it must be a mandatory tool in a required skill set  --  is it???

Thank you gentlemen...
Cardman

Last edited by mfcardoni (Thu, Nov 27, 2008 2:43 PM)

 

#2 Thu, Dec 4, 2008 2:29 AM

SethStisher
Karma:   
Pro Skier
Foot Forward: Lefty

Re: Wing

I know you didn't ask me, but I was reading this post and I thought I would throw in my two cents.  I think the simplest way to think of the wing is as a stabilizer.  Much like a spoiler on a car, it gives the ski a little more stability and ability to track "securely" in the tail.  Without a wing, the ski will feel faster, but less stable.  I think the wing is not need to heavily on some brands and styles of skis and definitely isn't mandatory for a lot of skiing at slower speeds.  One of the bi-products of having the wing on the ski is drag (this is at least a simple way to put it).  This drag can cause you to work extra hard to get width and also cause the ski to stall out in the turn.  The easiest thing you can do to experiment with the wing is try it both ways with the idea in mind of assessing whether the added stability of the wing is worht the speed trade-off.  Hope this helps, and sorry for butting in.  I hope everyone is doing well and staying warm.  IT's cold at our place in Charleston, but we are still skiing a few days a week.

 

#3 Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:47 PM

mfcardoni
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Regular
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Wing

Thank you Seth,
My impression had been that it was originally intended to assist with slowing down, and since the newer thought seems to be to carry speed through the turn in order to stay ahead of loading the rope  -- well, you see where the conclusion would be that it becomes defeating...

So with the "stabilizer" concept, and while everyone seems to recommend 9 degrees  -- what are your thoughts for a left foot fwd guy at 167 lbs, on a 67" Nomad D3 with Approach Bindings, running 22's & sporadic 28's @ 34 mph, trying to learn the counter-rotational approach  --  but having trouble with getting the width off the second wake..???

It is annoying that when free-skiing all the way into 32' off, I am able to stay down and soften knees and let the ski arc underneath me nicely -- but once in the course, it just feels like there is no time for that and up comes the outside (leading) shoulder feeling pushed by the presence of the buoy -- and there goes all width  --  doesn't matter if I counter now, as I have put myself momentarily (that's all it takes!) on a flat ski...

Butt in any time my friend, your reputation precedes you.
Thank you,
Cardman

Last edited by mfcardoni (Thu, Dec 4, 2008 4:54 PM)

 

#4 Fri, Dec 5, 2008 2:54 AM

2gofaster
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor

Re: Wing

Cardman, When I was on a Nomad, I didn't run a wing at 34mph. Same with the 9700. I just never felt like I could keep the ski in front of me with the wing on them at any setting. When I went to the Sixam SS and then the RS1, I switched to a wing. Those two skis carried much more speed and felt like the tip stayed down better with the wing. Of course, now I've bastardized the RS1 and put a tiny Schnitz wing on it! lol


Shane Hill

 

#5 Fri, Dec 5, 2008 8:58 PM

mfcardoni
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Regular
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Wing

Interesting Shane,

I understand the Schnitz wing reduces drag.
Perhaps a perfect idea for the Nomad??

What do you think Seth?

I understand that I just have to get out an try it...

My friend Roy was on a Nomad, and now a Radar. He concurs  --  Radar carries more speed.

Keep those insights coming fellas  --  all is appreciated!
Cardman

 

#6 Fri, Dec 5, 2008 11:50 PM

2gofaster
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor

Re: Wing

Radar also has a new wing that's smaller than the old style HO wing that everyone uses. It's made of .060 stainless and has a much thinner cross section on the part that sandwiches the fin. That's another option to try.


Shane Hill

 

#7 Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:07 AM

mfcardoni
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Regular
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Wing

Shane,
Good to know about the thinner Radar wing option.
May I conclude however that you are finding the Schnitz smaller wing to be preferable?
I'd be curious to hear your impressions of the differences between the two choices.
Cardman

 

#8 Sat, Dec 6, 2008 2:39 PM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Wing

Seth, thanks for answering! Don't worry about butting in, it's great to have you here.

As the wing size / profile gets larger or smaller, it's going to either increase or reduce the amount that you feel the wing being there. A super low profile small wing will add less drag and add less ski hold / stability than a larger wing.... So as the size of the wing decreases, you effectively move closer to not having a wing on your ski at all. A massive wing sticks the ski into the water so tight that it's hard to ski an easy line.

I think of the wing basically "sucking" the entire ski into the water more. A wingless ski will be faster edge to edge... you'll be able to ski into a ton more angle, but if you're at higher speeds & shorter ropes your ski will never slow down enough to settle into the turn without it.

Hopefully Seth will get back to you soon on the D3 question.

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#9 Sat, Dec 6, 2008 3:29 PM

2gofaster
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor

Re: Wing

Cardman, it's hard to compare the two because I've never run the schnitz wing on the radar fin. Only his slot fin. But both feel as if the edge change is snappier than the conventional HO type wing. The ski rolls edge to edge much easier. With me being a 22, 28, 32 off skier I don't feel as if I need to stick the ski in the water more than I am now. But does it cast out farther for more width?  I think that's more of a function of mechanics than the wing/no wing. At least for me, where I feel the difference in wing/no wing is behind the boat and the edge change.  When i struggle with width, the culprit has always been handle control. I almost instantly know now that if I come up short I let the handle come away from my body.


Shane Hill

 

#10 Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:44 PM

mfcardoni
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Regular
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Wing

Excellent Gentlemen!
Thank you for the insights and corroboration.

Shane, it is ultimately about technique and the finesse' one employs during those precious fractions of a second within the edge change  --  that will get us beyond 28' & 32' nicely. I am not quite in that echelon yet, but have concepts in hand. Your handle release insight was a direct hit on my technique shortcomings!

Seth & Wade, Thank you for a focus on the stability aspect  --  and where this becomes increasingly pertinent.

I am fortunate enough to get to occasionally watch Scott Larsen from the boat.
Sites and interaction like this allow me the pleasure of watching with a more critical eye!

I will have fun experimenting fellas...
Cardman

Last edited by mfcardoni (Sat, Dec 6, 2008 5:46 PM)

 

#11 Sun, Dec 7, 2008 4:04 PM

SethStisher
Karma:   
Pro Skier
Foot Forward: Lefty

Re: Wing

Sorry for the delay in sending my feedback to you.  I tend to agree wholeheartedly with Wade's comments about the smaller, thinner wing.  It would definitely be worth trying the thin Radar wing even on the D3.  In fact, I would love to hear your comments after doing so.  I would pick the Radar wing over the Schnitz wing just to support the industry!  This is important to me however it is a totally different conversation that I probably don't want to get into.  Please let me know how that wing goes on the D#.  I can get you one if you need me to.

Seth
www.waterskitrainer.com

 

#12 Mon, Dec 8, 2008 3:28 AM

mfcardoni
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Regular
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Wing

Sounds good Seth,

I will call H2Osmosis and get a Radar wing ordered through you.

I have the priviledge of motoring past our slalom course each morning that I travel to my workplace  --  a now struggling towboat dealership. Each morning I get to wave hello to 5 - 6 wonderful gentlemen in their 60's -80's preparing for their sets...
So, I embrace a broad inspiration to support this great sport and industry...with you on that account...

I'll measure my fin, and perhaps get your wing recommendations. Be more than happy to report back in regards to several settings.

My skills would certainly benefit from more than just a wing...are you ever available for say a 5 handed clinic in Southern Calif?

Cardman

 

#13 Mon, Dec 29, 2008 11:55 AM

mfcardoni
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Regular
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Wing

Okay Slalom Guru's  --  reporting back on my wing experience:

Installed Radar Wing that you sent Seth  --  @ 8 degrees.
50 degree water here in our Lake Elsinore Channel. Beautiful day!

34mph @ 22' off, and some free skiing...

Wade's interpretation of "sucking ski into the water" is very apt, hence enabling the very secure tracking, particularly in the tail, that Seth noted.

I noticed some lost quick & nimbleness, and when my muscle-memory anticipated quickness that wasn't there, I almost went out the front several times in the first run down the course! But I also noticed the entire ride to have a more "progressive element" to it, rather than the rocketing feel that often caused laziness in the transition focus & execution.

I don't know if this sounds right to you guys, but the transition is not as "explosive" with the wing -- perhaps that is a good thing, and perhaps I will simply need to soften my knees more dramatically now as I initiate this aspect..???

The arc of the turn closes faster for me with the wing  --  but now it is not as easy to ride the speed all the way into the wake before the boat pull says hello...

Ultimately, I believe that with more focus upon relaxing arms, leaning even further away, softening from the hips down  --  I will regain the minor elements lost, and sense a greater differential between acceleration & deceleration  --  and benefit greatly from what this wing brings to the table...

Interesting that @ 22', I am encouraged to try 36mph despite being Men's V.
But we'll see what happens @ 28' & 32' first.

Any thoughts gentlemen?

Cardman

 

#14 Fri, Jan 9, 2009 4:11 PM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Wing

Cardman,

No sense in going 36 if you don't have to, that what I say. It's not any easier! Just different.

Your wing experience sounds like it makes sense. Any lost "explosiveness" through the transition is probably due to the fact that your ski is just carrying a little more speed through the finish of the turn... you are skiing  more constant speed rather than such a big change in speed from turn-to-turn. You're expecting the ski to bite through the finish, which it doesn't do, because it just maintains speed better with the lower profile wing. It sounds like this is probably a good thing. You're having trouble riding the boats pull into the wakes just because you are expecting something to happen that is not happening any more. So stop over skiing that segment of your turn and try to feel it out more, you should find that it is actually easier to carry speed without boat pull into the wake, but this will likely take a little practice 'feeling' the ski's new turn out.

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