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Load and Direction / Pro Ski Coach Water Ski Forum
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#1 Tue, Jun 19, 2007 1:25 PM

Jan
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Registered: Wed, May 16, 2007
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Load and Direction

Quote: "The boat is racing down course, so in my mind, any time I am loading on the rope, I'm moving in the direction of the boat.  More simply put, load on the rope equals down course speed.  By staying off the load, you are able to create more cross course speed and direction"

Chris, I fully understand this up to the edge change, but how does this concept apply after the edge change? I do recall that you recommend to keep back arm pressure after the edge change til the buoy line. But this is creating load...

By the way, am loving my MPD. By far the best ski I have ever had!

Jan

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#2 Sat, Dec 6, 2008 6:29 AM

WadeWilliams
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From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
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Re: Load and Direction

Just moved this topic from the water ski section. I think this concept would apply the same after the edge change as it would before the edge change, or at any other point while the boat keeps racing down course...

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#3 Sun, Dec 7, 2008 8:15 AM

SethStisher
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From: Charleston, SC
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Re: Load and Direction

I would say that the clarification here would be related to which edge of the ski you are riding.  Additionally we are not talking about a great deal of load when we are talking about from the wakes out.

So, as far as the comment I just made about which edge of the ski you are on:
When you are on the cutting/power edge of the ski, loading too heavily will definitely create downcourse speed after the second wake because you max out and can only lose power and direction from the edge change out,  When you move against the line after the wakes when the ski is rolling out to the carving/turning edge it is maintenance of direction.

I guess when coaches say "Don't overload the line," what we should realy be saying is "to keep moving through the turn in order to limit tension on the line in the approach to the wakes so that we can maintain the tension we DO have all the way out to the apex of the next turn"...in other words spread all of that load out from the apex of one turn to the apex of the next-less for longer,  This is one of things I believe makes Rossi look so fluid and consistent throughout a pass.

Seth
www.waterskitrainer.com


Seth Stisher
seth@h2osmosis.com
www.h2oztrainingcenter.com and www.h2oproshop.com
Click here for virtual coaching:  www.proskicoach.com/pros/seth_stisher/

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#4 Fri, Jan 16, 2009 8:04 AM

ChrisRossi
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From: Orlando
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 506
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Load and Direction

I would like to thank Seth for participating on our forum.  This site is designed to offer skiers the knowledge they need to take their skiing to the next level.  The more professional coaches and skiers' input we get, the more chances we will have to break through with the skiers participating here.  Also, I appreciate the lack of useless chatter found on most forums.  We try to cut straight to the point and get the answers you are looking for.  One more very important thing.  Thanks Wade for setting up this awesome website and for constantly adding your professional 2 cents.

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#5 Fri, May 8, 2009 1:04 PM

jbski
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Registered: Fri, May 8, 2009
Posts: 34

Re: Load and Direction

Chris,

Hey. Raising my hand here as a poster responsible for some of the useless chatter on one of the other forums. However, my most recent useless chatter actually had a purpose in that I just though it funny that Wade posted about ski technique now being labeled as "NE Style". I always thought that giving a technique a geographic label like "west coast" (even though I'm from the west coast and have been trying to apply those principles to my own skiing for several years now) or "NE" just tends to promote needless controversy because of the connotation that one area of the country is more cutting edge than the others. Maybe if the label was more descriptive to the technique instead of a region it would be more readily accepted. Whatever - it's not that big of a deal. I was just calling him on it a bit in a silly way. That and the "other" forum is about the most humorless place I've ever been, so I was also just entertaining myself a bit. Selfish, I know. Anyway, I promise to refrain from useless chatter on this forum and try to learn something from you, Wade, and the other posters. BTW - I'm just starting to get this light load thing. 

thanks,
Jim

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#6 Fri, May 8, 2009 6:38 PM

ChrisRossi
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Pro Skier
From: Orlando
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 506
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Load and Direction

Jim,
     I here ya.  It's just a matter of representin where you're from.  Wade should rename it "Masshole style"

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#7 Fri, May 8, 2009 6:50 PM

2gofaster
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Slalom Mentor
From: Cypress, Tx
Registered: Sun, Jun 1, 2008
Posts: 337

Re: Load and Direction

I have to agree........ Everyone is here to learn and become better without all the drama and bs. I learn something every week from here. Although I'm down in buoy count from last year, I've begun to fix all the things I learned wrong based on the information you guys(Chris, Wade, Seth, etc) give to us. One of the 39 1/2 off skiers I ski with told me the other day that I was finally getting it. That I was finally skiing and not just being drug around behind the boat. So I want to thank all of you and let you know how much I appreciate this site.


Shane Hill

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#8 Sat, May 9, 2009 6:28 AM

WadeWilliams
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Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
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Re: Load and Direction

jbski-

Great post, glad to have you on board!

If you want to spell it "Any" Style in stead of NE that's fine with me


Masshole since 1983

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#9 Sat, May 9, 2009 7:13 AM

Schnitz
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From: Lake Worth, Florida
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Posts: 118
Foot Forward: Right
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Re: Load and Direction

Jan wrote;

Quote: "The boat is racing down course, so in my mind, any time I am loading on the rope, I'm moving in the direction of the boat.  More simply put, load on the rope equals down course speed.  By staying off the load, you are able to create more cross course speed and direction"

I really do not understand the logic here.  When we are moving in the same direction as the boat, we have the LEAST amount of load.  As our angle increases away from the path of the boat, our load increases exponentially.  What am I missing?

Schnitz!

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#10 Sat, May 9, 2009 9:15 AM

WadeWilliams
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Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Load and Direction

Schnitz,

You are moving in the same direction of the boat the whole time you water ski. You stay inside a predefined radius from the pylon. Preferably, a smaller radius is better wink

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#11 Sat, May 9, 2009 6:59 PM

Schnitz
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From: Lake Worth, Florida
Registered: Thu, Nov 6, 2008
Posts: 118
Foot Forward: Right
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Re: Load and Direction

Again, the least amount of load is when skiing in the exact same direction as the boat, i.e. in the center of the wakes, tip of the ski pointing at the center rear of the boat.  Any deviation off of this center path increases load.  Yes or no?

Schnitz!

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#12 Sun, May 10, 2009 4:37 AM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Load and Direction

How do you deviate off of the center path?

If you let go of the rope and skied to the left, you wouldn't increase load.

If you pull your ass off and ski to the left, you'll increase load.

What about if you move left without increasing load?

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#13 Sun, May 10, 2009 9:52 AM

Schnitz
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From: Lake Worth, Florida
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Posts: 118
Foot Forward: Right
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Re: Load and Direction

It is physically impossible to deviate from the straight ahead path without increasing load as long as you are holding onto the handle. 

Schnitz!

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#14 Sun, May 10, 2009 10:06 AM

WadeWilliams
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Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Load and Direction

I agree. How much do you have to load?

The difference lies in how much load you "hold" - if you hold less you will minimize the actual load on the boat and on your body while maximizing cross course speed. You will always have SOME load and it will increase SOME but exponential spikes in load do not seem like the most efficient way to get it done.

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#15 Sun, May 10, 2009 10:49 AM

mbabiash
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From: wichita kansas
Registered: Mon, Feb 25, 2008
Posts: 25
Foot Forward: left foot forward

Re: Load and Direction

I am not a slalom guru or an expert in physics however:
Force=mass * acceleration
Skiing right behind the boat, the skier has no acceleration.
Any deviation from skiing straight behind the boat (left or right) will result in acceleration.
The only way to accelerate is to increase load (force) on handle according to the equation.
     This being said, Once the skier crosses the entry gates, the only way to minimize load is to eliminate variances in acceleration.  Keeping a constant speed through the wake and through the turns would completely eliminate load/force  increases.   This is impossible as we cannot turn at the same speed that we cross the wake.   I think Seth said it perfectly earlier :  Spread the load out by maintaining speed through the turn.   Excessive load comes only from massive deceleration.

Again not a guru at all in either discipline but it helps me to prove it through math and physics.

Matt

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#16 Sun, May 10, 2009 11:32 AM

h20dawg79
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Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Load and Direction

mbabiash wrote:

I am not a slalom guru or an expert in physics however:
Force=mass * acceleration
Skiing right behind the boat, the skier has no acceleration.
Any deviation from skiing straight behind the boat (left or right) will result in acceleration.
The only way to accelerate is to increase load (force) on handle according to the equation.
     This being said, Once the skier crosses the entry gates, the only way to minimize load is to eliminate variances in acceleration.  Keeping a constant speed through the wake and through the turns would completely eliminate load/force  increases.   This is impossible as we cannot turn at the same speed that we cross the wake.   I think Seth said it perfectly earlier :  Spread the load out by maintaining speed through the turn.   Excessive load comes only from massive deceleration.

Again not a guru at all in either discipline but it helps me to prove it through math and physics.

Matt

WOW!
Matt,  Very well Thought out and Written...
That speaks Volumes to me!smile


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#17 Sun, May 10, 2009 12:41 PM

JAS
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Registered: Thu, May 24, 2007
Posts: 77

Re: Load and Direction

The consideration that often gets left out of the discussion is drag. (F=MA +Drag.)  A perfect example would be the difference between the force required to accelerate a 50 Kg. box on sand vs. the force required to accelerate the same 50 Kg. box on ice.  The less drag that we throw into the system the more efficient we accelerate with less line tension. When the boat feels the skier heavily load the rope, what it really is feeling is a bunch of drag the skier has just created. Efficient acceleration and minimal drag = light line tension through the course.  Skiing the "Possible Line", not overturning, moving mass forward through the turn, not burying the ski, and being a constant flow of motion seems to be the Rx for efficient technique. As far as  average or min/max speed goes, this will be determined to a large part ski path. Whatever ski path we individually decide to take the common goal should be to ski it as efficient as possible.

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#18 Sun, May 10, 2009 6:48 PM

Schnitz
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From: Lake Worth, Florida
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Posts: 118
Foot Forward: Right
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Re: Load and Direction

h20dawg79 wrote;

"Seth said it perfectly earlier :  Spread the load out by maintaining speed through the turn.   Excessive load comes only from massive deceleration".

Question; how can you maintain speed through the turn?  Excessive load can also come from massive angle!

Schnitz!

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#19 Sun, May 10, 2009 8:14 PM

mbabiash
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Regular
From: wichita kansas
Registered: Mon, Feb 25, 2008
Posts: 25
Foot Forward: left foot forward

Re: Load and Direction

Shnitz
Massive angle only results in massive deceleration. Resulting in the skier being pulled down course versus moving cross course.
As I said before, it is impossible to keep the same speed that we have created crossing the wake, however, we need to maintain as much of that speed as possible or our load will end up being increased. 

Matt

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#20 Mon, May 11, 2009 3:36 AM

Schnitz
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Slalom Mentor
From: Lake Worth, Florida
Registered: Thu, Nov 6, 2008
Posts: 118
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Load and Direction

Massive angle equals massive acceleration!  An increase in angle equals an increase in the number of feet traveled per second.  You cannot go be going slower while attaining more angle!

"Seth said it perfectly earlier :  Spread the load out by maintaining speed through the turn".  Again, how do you maintain speed through the turn?

Schnitz!

Last edited by Schnitz (Mon, May 11, 2009 3:36 AM)

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#21 Mon, May 11, 2009 5:10 AM

moomba1
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From: lake norman charlotte
Registered: Sat, Oct 18, 2008
Posts: 24
Foot Forward: right ft

Re: Load and Direction

wade,thank god i'm stupid and simple cause i got it the first time.


dont be afraid

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#22 Mon, May 11, 2009 6:55 AM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Load and Direction

Schnitz wrote:

".  Again, how do you maintain speed through the turn?

Schnitz!

For my 1 1/2 cents, I can say by my own old school super Hard, quick turn, method. -That I can sure kill all my speed in an instant if I don't execute a perfect entrance and exit angle...

Therefore, I think what Seth is elluding to is executing a More Fluid turn that sacrifices as Little speed as possible... Thus in a sense, actually Maintaining speed -as much as possible.


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#23 Mon, May 11, 2009 7:18 AM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Load and Direction

When you are going straight behind the boat, the skier has positive accelleration in the downcourse direction. Yes, if you stand in a super efficient position then this acceleration will be negligible, but it is there.

Without this constant force from the boat you would sink!

If you are claiming that there is no acceleration at this point then:

0f = 72kg * 0 m/s

The only time you have zero force coming through the rope is if you have sufficient momentum to ski without the rope or the boat's pull.

When you're behind the boat The force is MINIMAL but it is there. You dont have a propeller on your ski, you are bypassing friction and gravity and staying on top of the water due to the boat's force.

Increasing force on the handle will get you nothing. The handle is getting pulled down the lake with the boat and the pylon. Forcing the handle anywhere is futile.

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#24 Mon, May 11, 2009 2:14 PM

Thomas Wayne
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Slalom Mentor
Registered: Sun, Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 228

Re: Load and Direction

jbski wrote:

Chris,

Hey. Raising my hand here as a poster responsible for some of the useless chatter on one of the other forums. However, my most recent useless chatter actually had a purpose in that I just though it funny that Wade posted about ski technique now being labeled as "NE Style". I always thought that giving a technique a geographic label like "west coast" (even though I'm from the west coast and have been trying to apply those principles to my own skiing for several years now) or "NE" just tends to promote needless controversy because of the connotation that one area of the country is more cutting edge than the others. [...]
thanks,
Jim

I agree, and I have to think we can come up with better, less confrontational designations than "West Coast Style" and "NE Style".  Hey... how about  "Crips" and "Bloods"?

TW

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#25 Mon, May 11, 2009 4:19 PM

Schnitz
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Slalom Mentor
From: Lake Worth, Florida
Registered: Thu, Nov 6, 2008
Posts: 118
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Load and Direction

Let's try to keep this real simple. 

Wade wrote;

When you are going straight behind the boat, the skier has positive acceleration in the downcourse direction.   

Schnitz - Positive acceleration against what?  The skier is going the exact same speed as the boat with the minimum amount of load.

Wade; Yes, if you stand in a super efficient position then this acceleration will be negligible, but it is there.

Schnitz - "Acceleration" from Winkopedia = "In physics, and more specifically kinematics, acceleration is the change in velocity over time.[1] Because velocity is a vector, it can change in two ways: a change in magnitude and/or a change in direction".  Since the skier is neither speeding up nor changing direction, the skier is not accelerating!

Wade; Without this constant force from the boat you would sink!  If you are claiming that there is no acceleration at this point then:

0f = 72kg * 0 m/s

Schnitz - Acceleration = "In physics, and more specifically kinematics, acceleration is the change in velocity over time.[1] Because velocity is a vector, it can change in two ways: a change in magnitude and/or a change in direction".  Since the skier is neither speeding up nor changing direction, the skier is not accelerating!

Wade; The only time you have zero force coming through the rope is if you have sufficient momentum to ski without the rope or the boat's pull.

When you're behind the boat, the force is MINIMAL but it is there. You don't have a propeller on your ski, you are bypassing friction and gravity and staying on top of the water due to the boat's force.

Increasing force on the handle will get you nothing. The handle is getting pulled down the lake with the boat and the pylon. Forcing the handle anywhere is futile.

Schnitz - None of this explains (nor is relevant) to the question; ôSeth said it perfectly earlier:  Spread the load out by maintaining speed through the turn".  Again, how do you maintain speed through the turn?

Schnitz!

Last edited by Schnitz (Mon, May 11, 2009 4:21 PM)

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