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#1 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 1:38 PM

Andrew1988
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Slasher
From: White Lake, MI
Registered: Mon, Feb 8, 2010
Posts: 84
Skis At: Where ever I can
Foot Forward: Left

Edging through the wakes.

Hey guys, I hope I can get some insight here. Anyway one of my biggest problems, of the many lol, is not edging through the wakes. I know your edge change should come off the second wake and I also know the easiest way to see when this is happening is either video tape it, or have an observer watch. My only problem is almost everyone that spots for me is not a skier at all so they really have no idea what to look for even if I explain it.

Anyway my question is, is there any reference points that I as a skier should be paying attention to? Whether it be visual or feeling on the ski?

Here is a picture of me not edging strong through the wakes (offside turn coming off of 2 ball, 22off 34mph):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/Hoppy11/DSCN2734.jpg


Looking for places to ski in Metro Detroit!

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#2 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 1:51 PM

trichter12
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From: Madison, Wi
Registered: Wed, Sep 9, 2009
Posts: 44
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Re: Edging through the wakes.

One that Im noticing from the picture is your head.  It appears as though your view is already at the next buoy.  If you keep your eyes focused on the pylon or back of the boat longer, you will have a better pull, and might help you keep your edge longer through the wakes.


Travis

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#3 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 2:53 PM

jbski
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Registered: Fri, May 8, 2009
Posts: 34

Re: Edging through the wakes.

Andrew,
First and most obvious is you need to relax your arms and let them extend. By doing this you will increase your lean away from the boat and the accompanying edge angle of your ski. Then, if you can keep the handle in close to your thigh as well, you'll be in a good leveraged position. Bent arms is a common hurdle for skiers on their offside cut across the wakes. You can practice this position in a static exercise out to the right side of the boat (as a lefty). Have someone watch you to let you know if you are good with your position (or not) and hold it for a bit. You can practice this in a more dynamic exercise by just cutting from the left side to the right side without worrying about the following turn - just cut then glide, then cut, then glide, repeat, repeat as room on your lake allows.

There's more, but that'd be a good start. Good luck!
Jim

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#4 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 4:46 PM

david38off
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From: Hillsboro, TN
Registered: Tue, Jun 10, 2008
Posts: 53
Skis At: 34 mph
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Website

Re: Edging through the wakes.

I agree with jbski.  It appears you are trying to "pull" yourself thru the wakes with the upper body.  Instead do not "pull" but lean away from the boat and keep the arms as straight as possible , esp the "trailing" arm (left arm in this picture).  Try to focus on bringing the handle to your hip/thigh by leaning away rather than "pulling".  Let the boat "pull" you to the other side instead of you tryng to "pull" yourself to the other side of the wakes.  I think this will naturally "open" your shoulders more to the boat as I think  trichter12 is saying.

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#5 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 5:38 PM

h20dawg79
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From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

Ya, exactly as written above for starters! Arms are way to tight and trying to "Pull". This is because you are Not trusting the Lean.
As stated, forget the corners and just make Good Strong pulls back into the 1st wake with Hips up and handle down. Then, simply Continue this same position and as you come off the 2nd wake you will notice the water automatically break on the other side of the ski upon landing off the 2nd wake, "If" you do it right!

As you begin to trust your Lean, your pulls will begin to get much easier and faster with much Less effort and much Less "pop" or Bounce off of the wakes...


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#6 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 9:21 PM

ColinBuchanan
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From: Lake Norman, NC
Registered: Tue, Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 175
Skis At: SkiTek
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

In looking at the picture you posted I can see from your spray that you have already started your edge change. Think about your turn rolling all the way until the second wake. This means you need to roll into your lean through the wakes more progressively instead of trying to get that position all at once. My guess without seeing other photos or video is that you mashed a turn trying to get into good position through the wakes and had maxed out the stretch of the rope already. All of the above info is awesome but your problem may be trying to get too much lean out of your turn therefore maxing your lean before you get to the wakes causing the premature edge change. Let your lean build progressively getting stronger until the second wake when the boat should start to pull you up into your edge change because that is the point of your strongest lean. NOT right off the buoy.

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#7 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 4:23 AM

h20dawg79
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From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

Colin is probably dead on about your corners being rushed and too aggresive, causing too much line Load, too soon and hindering or eliminating your chance of a Good Lean or Pull position by the time you get to the wakes...

This is why is it so important to forget the corners for now and get the "Feel" of a proper pull. After practicing and drilling the pull you'll do yourself a favor by working on lazy, more rounded, smooth Open water turns before going back into the course.
Even when you finally go back to the course, I'd highly suggest only "Shadowing" the Buoys until you are smooth, fluid and consistantly ending up early and wide to the buoys, before trying to go around them. Or you will simply regress to rushed turns, Bad positioning and the snow ball effect that will follow...


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#8 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 10:51 AM

BudMan
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From: Sandy Run, SC (Near Columbia)
Registered: Tue, Nov 24, 2009
Posts: 126
Skis At: Bud Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

Andrew, You mentioned others in the boat. Have them video for you. When you get back home, view your video side-by-side with someone skiing more like you want to ski and make your changes accordingly, mainly body position. Compare the two skiers' spray throughtout the course, it will tell you a lot. The other replies you have gotten are good. Keep in mind, when you bend your arms, you are pulling yourself out of your lean. Look at Schnitz's 28 -41 on his home page.

Last edited by BudMan (Fri, Jul 9, 2010 10:52 AM)


Life is great! Enjoy every minute!

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#9 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 12:42 PM

Andrew1988
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From: White Lake, MI
Registered: Mon, Feb 8, 2010
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Foot Forward: Left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

Thanks for all the responses guys. All of which make sense. I also waited to ask this question until now because on Saturday I am leaving for a week and a half vacation to my cottage were I will only be able to open water ski so I figured the time spent there would be the perfect time to working on correcting some things.


Looking for places to ski in Metro Detroit!

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#10 Tue, Jul 13, 2010 8:26 AM

Andrew1988
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From: White Lake, MI
Registered: Mon, Feb 8, 2010
Posts: 84
Skis At: Where ever I can
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

So after three days of open water skiing I can already feel both sides of my turns getting better. My onside is very smooth right now when I concentrate on rolling off the turn, keeping my eyes on the boat and skiing back to the handle instead of ripping around to it.

My offside is not as smooth but has made leaps and bounds of progress. It is not very consistent yet but when I do the things mentioned above for on my onside it is 3 times better then what it was three days ago. I still need to get it through my head to just edge through the damn wakes on my offside. Its partially mental, but I also know and can feel that I am trying to load the line to quickly instead of progressively.

So thank you for all of the advice guys! I will try to get some video later for you guys to look at and I want to do a virtual coaching lesson too.


Looking for places to ski in Metro Detroit!

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#11 Wed, Jul 14, 2010 10:52 AM

dwallar
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From: Newmarket, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Wed, Aug 26, 2009
Posts: 20
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

Thanks for this post Andrew.  It's very similar to mine about crunching forward in the wakes.

My coach (Paul Roberts @ Summerski) recently had a look at my form on the static machine onshore and noted that one of my issues is that while my arms tend to be straight my shoulders are pulled forward.  He told me to pinch my shoulder blades together.  When I did this a whole bunch of things happened...

1.  My chest pushed forward
2.  My hips pushed forward
3.  The handle automatically dropped lower.
4.  I tucked my chin in more to maintain visual on the imaginary pylon.

Then he said, OK, now bend your knees more...and wallah, perfect lean position.

All sounds good, eh, but haven't yet tried it on the water.

Wondering what you guys think of this whole "pinching of the shoulder blades" idea.

Also, I realize that there is a lot to this whole concept of trusting the lean.  I think that mentally I struggle here the most and need to "just do it".

Anyway, that's my situation at the moment.

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#12 Wed, Jul 14, 2010 11:12 AM

Thomas Wayne
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Posts: 228

Re: Edging through the wakes.

dwallar wrote:

[...]
Wondering what you guys think of this whole "pinching of the shoulder blades" idea.

[...]

Harald Hintringer, who skis into -41', has a simple shoulder harness that forces his shoulders back (and shoulder blades "pinched") the entire time he's skiing.  The harness looks a bit like a figure-eight made of ~ 1 1/4" nylon webbing - it appears to be a custom fit (non-adjustable) to me.

TW

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#13 Mon, Jul 19, 2010 7:28 AM

dwallar
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From: Newmarket, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Wed, Aug 26, 2009
Posts: 20
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Re: Edging through the wakes.

Andrew1988 wrote:

So after three days of open water skiing I can already feel both sides of my turns getting better. My onside is very smooth right now when I concentrate on rolling off the turn, keeping my eyes on the boat and skiing back to the handle instead of ripping around to it.

My offside is not as smooth but has made leaps and bounds of progress. It is not very consistent yet but when I do the things mentioned above for on my onside it is 3 times better then what it was three days ago. I still need to get it through my head to just edge through the damn wakes on my offside. Its partially mental, but I also know and can feel that I am trying to load the line to quickly instead of progressively.

I had another lesson at Summerski on Friday evening.  Practiced just slowly edging the ski from just outside the white water.  I am making the same mistake in that even with this exercise I am edging strongly right away and then as soon as I hit the wakes I back off my edge, arms pull forward, and I crunch at the waist, especially on my offside.

So, my coach tried shortening the line to 35 off with the theory that there would be no wake and just do the same exercise.  But this time I found that while the wake was less there was sort of a "bowl" behind the boat that threw me off and I had one OTF crash as a result.  I wasn't pulling hard though being 35 off....

After 6 passes I tried something new on one of my offside turns...I ignored the wake and stared at the pylon the whole time.  This seemed to help.  I agree with you 100% that this is a mental game.  I am getting somewhat discouraged that I will never get over this fear of the wakes thing and having 44 years of bad habit in wake crossing isn't helping.

What opinions on literally ignoring the wake and just staring at the pylon?  I am really scared of these OTF falls on my offside.  I feel like an absolute beginner.....

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#14 Mon, Jul 19, 2010 9:24 AM

ColinBuchanan
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From: Lake Norman, NC
Registered: Tue, Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 175
Skis At: SkiTek
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

dwaller I had one thought that really smoothed out toeside wake crossings for me. I focused on trying to feel more pressure on my back/left arm after my outside hand connected with the handle as I was finishing the turn and coming back towards the wakes. What this did, was to stop me from overloading my front/right arm causing an OTF fall through the second wake. Basically it allowed me to have even hand pressure on the handle without leaving my hips behind me. Might work for you.

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#15 Mon, Jul 19, 2010 9:29 AM

HO410
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Registered: Sat, Sep 29, 2007
Posts: 345
Skis At: Outlaw Lake
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Edging through the wakes.

Wow, using the blue rope to build confidence crossing the wakes?  Something about that sounds like a ceremony for a fat lip.

I totally get where you're coming from on the dry land drills. They are great to get a mental picture, but the dynamics of standing on a moving ski are, or at least feel, completely different. It may be worth taking the time to spend on the pull out drill. You hook up to a shorter line (-35' is a good one), pull out and stay there. Go left and stay there for the entire pass. Then go right and stay there for the entire pass. As you go along the goal is to get yourself into a natural, stacked position while you get up and stay up on the boat.

When you track down better positioning on the ski, the wakes won't be a big deal. You'll get and keep the ski on edge so it will slice through the wakes instead of bounce over. You will also have a stronger more balanced postion over the ski so when it does bounce, you will not get chucked off.

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#16 Fri, Jul 23, 2010 12:25 PM

benji
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Rookie
Registered: Mon, Oct 27, 2008
Posts: 3

Re: Edging through the wakes.

Hi Slasher,

It looks like old school style. But try this, Pull out for your gets with your hips in front of you. On your turn to the gates (very important to keep the pressure forward on the apex of the turn) when the pull comes from the the boat, keep driving yours hips forward and take this all the way down the course. keep your handle to the side of your hip with straight arms .   its very important not to pull on the handle through the wakes, this is tempting because you will go a bit faster, dont freak out by this, just try at a lower speed.


Please let me know how you get on...  This will give you better consistence if practised.



Dont let your hips get behind you around the bouys.........

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#17 Fri, Jul 23, 2010 1:57 PM

snow1122
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From: Los Angeles, Ca
Registered: Fri, Sep 26, 2008
Posts: 120
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Re: Edging through the wakes.

keep your handle to the side of your hip with straight arms

Hi Benji,

Could you elaborate on this part a bit more, like which side of the hip?

Thank you.

Snow

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#18 Sun, Jul 25, 2010 5:16 PM

Chef23
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From: Natick, MA
Registered: Wed, Jul 30, 2008
Posts: 59
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

dwallar, you should be looking at the pylon when you are crossing the wake and not at the wakes.  Looking at the pylon opens your chest to the boat and enables you to have better body position across the wakes.

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#19 Sun, Jul 25, 2010 5:38 PM

Andrew1988
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From: White Lake, MI
Registered: Mon, Feb 8, 2010
Posts: 84
Skis At: Where ever I can
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Edging through the wakes.

Chef23 wrote:

dwallar, you should be looking at the pylon when you are crossing the wake and not at the wakes.  Looking at the pylon opens your chest to the boat and enables you to have better body position across the wakes.

I completely agree this. Like you already read dwallar my offside had improved already after 3-4 open water sets. But after another week it improved even more. And when I didn't have a good crossing the spotter in the boat told me i wasn't looking at the pylon. I could really start to notice the difference too as I became of comfortable with looking at the pylon I could really feel myself being open to the boat with give a much better pull as been stated.

Just trying to give some confidence to ya!


Looking for places to ski in Metro Detroit!

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