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Ski Stalling on Offside turn / Pro Ski Coach Water Ski Forum
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#1 Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:27 PM

Garn
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Slalom Mentor
From: Alpine, Utah
Registered: Thu, May 17, 2007
Posts: 139
Skis At: Utah Lake
Foot Forward: Right

Ski Stalling on Offside turn

On my offside turn, as my ski comes around the buoy, it seems as if many times my ski stalls (for lack of a better description).  I'm only a 22 off skier (even though today I just ran 28 for the first time this year!!) and I just figured it was my technique.  But I'm not so sure if that's totally it.  Could a fin adjustment help me out?  I'm not a big fin-adjuster type of guy.  I put my fin on the recommended specs last year when I got my ski and I haven't touched them since.  But I'm beginning to wonder if that might help me out.  What I do NOT want to do is change the fin, not like it, and not be able to get back to where I was before I moved it.  (Does anyone else have that fear?)  Anyway, could  fin change help or do you think its more the skier?

I'm 5'11", weight 190, have a 67.5 HO A1, 34 mph skier, right foot forward with Radar RS1 boots.

Thanks,

Garn

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#2 Wed, Jul 7, 2010 3:47 PM

burn
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Rookie
Registered: Sun, Aug 5, 2007
Posts: 3

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

Does this behaviour of your ski change with rising water temperature?

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#3 Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:21 PM

Deke
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Slalom Mentor
From: Telluride, CO
Registered: Thu, Apr 3, 2008
Posts: 126
Skis At: 15/34
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

If I were a bettin' man I'd bet you're reaching over for the handle, rotating your upper body into the turn, or both.

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#4 Wed, Jul 7, 2010 4:44 PM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

I think a more thorough description of the problem is needed.

i.e. What is the Tip doing after the apex? -(wheelie, tip high or Biting/digging)

Are you breaking fwd. @ the waist? 

Are you ending up with any slack line?

Does it seem to over turn or under turn?


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#5 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 4:37 AM

SC_swerve
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Regular
From: Chapin, SC
Registered: Wed, Aug 6, 2008
Posts: 35
Skis At: Lake Murray
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

Try less tip. Measure everything before changing anything. If less tip doesn't help, set everything back. In order to progress you have to be willing to make changes. I use to fear making fin changes until I purchased a EZFin Tool. Now it's relatively easy to make fin changes that are accurate/repeatable.

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#6 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 6:33 AM

Garn
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Slalom Mentor
From: Alpine, Utah
Registered: Thu, May 17, 2007
Posts: 139
Skis At: Utah Lake
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

--- What is the Tip doing after the apex? -(wheelie, tip high or Biting/digging)
The tip is NOT wheelien.  Its more biting than anything else.

--Are you breaking fwd. @ the waist? 
Yes, it stalls and I bend forward at the waist.

--Are you ending up with any slack line?
No, not really.

--Does it seem to over turn or under turn?
I would say under turn.

I might add that I am running the wing at 8 degrees and not the recommended 9 degrees.

SC_Swerve, when you say try less tip, how much less tip are you talking?

Thanks for your help.

Garn

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#7 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 9:41 AM

leftfootforward
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Local
Registered: Mon, Feb 9, 2009
Posts: 6

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

It could be simply not pulling strong through the second wake and the ski dies at the apex. I had the same problem last year. Greg Badal did a clinic at our lake and pointed it out and I havent had that issue since. 

I am 5 10, left foot forward, and ski on an A1.

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#8 Thu, Jul 8, 2010 5:22 PM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

Since the problem only exists on one side, (as opposed to Both sides of the course) it may very well lie in your fin adjustment as opposed to a Binding adjustment. Assuming that there is nothing too far out on your Body positioning, the adjustmentment would be to take out a little tip and decrease your leading edge. A longer fuller leading edge drives the front of the ski down into the water on the off-side turn. And a shorter Leading edge raises the front of the ski, resulting in a longer, rounder turn.

WTS, if you are not rushing your off-side turn, the above adjustment could be the fix. I would check all of your present settings until you can get repeatable consistant #'s  then record your data and  proceed to reduce the tip (moving it up into the ski) and decreasing the leading edge by 0.003". Go out and give it at least 2 different trips to the course before changing it back or trying +or- .001" or .002"

Good Luck!smile


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#9 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 7:07 AM

Garn
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Slalom Mentor
From: Alpine, Utah
Registered: Thu, May 17, 2007
Posts: 139
Skis At: Utah Lake
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

" ....decreasing the leading edge by 0.003".  THREE ONE THOUSANDTHS OF AN INCH!!!  It blows my mind that 3 one thousandth of an inch can make a difference!  That's like the width of a hair! 

Thank you all for your help.

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#10 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 11:44 AM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

Garn wrote:

" ....decreasing the leading edge by 0.003".  THREE ONE THOUSANDTHS OF AN INCH!!!  It blows my mind that 3 one thousandth of an inch can make a difference!  That's like the width of a hair! 

Thank you all for your help.

I Hear ya!
I have some data here somewhere that explains if you need to raise the front of your ski 3" (at the end of the off-side turn) to tap the fin tip up 1/32" and it goes on to reiterate this fact by saying something like: "yes, 1/32" will raise or Lower the front of your ski 3", so be careful not to over do it"...  I remember the 1st time that I read that info. I was Blown away!

As long as you can get repeatable #'s with your calipers, you'll do fine! I normally check each measurement 3 times. And I put a high priority on repeating the same tech., squareness, flat or 90 deg. angle, etc... for each measurement site.


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#11 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 12:00 PM

jamisonsbrodie
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Slasher
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Sun, Mar 1, 2009
Posts: 72
Skis At: Lotus Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

h20dawg79 wrote:

I have some data here somewhere that explains if you need to raise the front of your ski 3" (at the end of the off-side turn) to tap the fin tip up 1/32" and it goes on to reiterate this fact by saying something like: "yes, 1/32" will raise or Lower the front of your ski 3", so be careful not to over do it"...  I remember the 1st time that I read that info. I was Blown away!

As long as you can get repeatable #'s with your calipers, you'll do fine! I normally check each measurement 3 times. And I put a high priority on repeating the same tech., squareness, flat or 90 deg. angle, etc... for each measurement site.

FYI, 1/32" is .03", not .003".  That would make a big difference.

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#12 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 12:49 PM

StevenHaines
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Slalom Mentor
From: Canyon Lake Ca.
Registered: Mon, Jun 9, 2008
Posts: 152
Skis At: Canyon Lake, Ca.
Foot Forward: right
Website

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

Ok, since you all are talking about fin adjustments and the way they effect the attitude of the ski. Have you guys checked out the info that Paul at Fluid Motion has written about fin tuning and more importantly his fin program? I've had some excellent results using this program! All but one person that I've introduced to this program to is still using it and all of them have seen measurable improvement in consistency and some of us have blown away their Personal Bests! The thing that is most amazing about this program is that it seems to maximize the characteristics of the ski as long as you have the ski tuned to the correct temp and water density. I usually tune my ski in increments of 5 degrees and after each adjustment I get that same consistent and predictable feeling under my feet. If you haven't tried this, you owe it to yourself!   http://jagersport.com/FM_FinChart_2009a.xls#WARP8!A1

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#13 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 12:58 PM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

jamisonsbrodie wrote:

h20dawg79 wrote:

I have some data here somewhere that explains if you need to raise the front of your ski 3" (at the end of the off-side turn) to tap the fin tip up 1/32" and it goes on to reiterate this fact by saying something like: "yes, 1/32" will raise or Lower the front of your ski 3", so be careful not to over do it"...  I remember the 1st time that I read that info. I was Blown away!

As long as you can get repeatable #'s with your calipers, you'll do fine! I normally check each measurement 3 times. And I put a high priority on repeating the same tech., squareness, flat or 90 deg. angle, etc... for each measurement site.

FYI, 1/32" is .03", not .003".  That would make a big difference.

Those two references had nothing to do with each other! I was not telling him to move it 3" I was only refering to a qoute in some adjustment data that had really Blew me away. Everyone can relate to 1/32" and for that little of a change to raise or lower the ski tip 3" is impressive to me!

.003 was for the Leading edge measurement only.

1/32" equals 3" was refering to the up/dn. measurement of fin tip only.

Sorry!smile

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Fri, Jul 9, 2010 12:59 PM)


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#14 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 1:48 PM

jamisonsbrodie
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Slasher
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Sun, Mar 1, 2009
Posts: 72
Skis At: Lotus Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

h20dawg79 wrote:

.003 was for the Leading edge measurement only.

1/32" equals 3" was refering to the up/dn. measurement of fin tip only.

Sorry!smile

Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but aren't these the same thing?  "Leading Edge" is length of fin.  Reducing tip means shortening the length of the fin/leading edge by pushing the nose of the fin into the ski.

Last edited by jamisonsbrodie (Fri, Jul 9, 2010 1:52 PM)

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#15 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 3:22 PM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

jamisonsbrodie wrote:

h20dawg79 wrote:

.003 was for the Leading edge measurement only.

1/32" equals 3" was refering to the up/dn. measurement of fin tip only.

Sorry!smile

Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but aren't these the same thing?  "Leading Edge" is length of fin.  Reducing tip means shortening the length of the fin/leading edge by pushing the nose of the fin into the ski.

Yes, but I don't think raising the tip back into the ski by 1/32" will only equal a reduction in length of .003". (if it does, then it is purely coincidence...) That's why I said these 2 references have nothing to do with each other.

The .003" that I originally suggested, is probably not enough to rectify the issue. But, .005" would surely be the most one would want to reduce it (the Length) in 1 whack B4 water testing it. Also, with no mention of this ski being a "New Ski" to the skier, I would have to think that this issue has just recently became an issue with well used ski. Therefore, unless the ski got whacked Hard and knocked out of adjustment. (which is highly possible) Then, it's probably not too far off from what was working o.k. last season. Or the skiers tech. has somehow changed only on the off-side...

Sorry again!


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#16 Fri, Jul 9, 2010 9:40 PM

tjo
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Slalom Mentor
From: Draper, UT
Registered: Wed, Apr 23, 2008
Posts: 197
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

Garn,

I was reading some of my notes tonight in preparation for hitting the lake tomorrow.  I came across something that reminded me of your question...and something I have struggled with at times in the past.  The answer that rang true to me the most was found on the waterski forum and was posted by RAL.  I'm too lazy to go search the actual link since I have the quote copied verbatim in my notes (I do however want to give the author credit).  Here is what he said, "Just try to keep your elbows in after the second wake. One thing that I have seen a lot getting the arms out at the second wake. This will make the ski flat and will put and the skier forward. Then the reach is done starting with a straight arm, so the only way of moving the handle towards the boat is to move the body forward. This will cause the ski to bite and stall."

Hope that helps!

Travis


Travis Ogden

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#17 Sun, Jul 11, 2010 12:51 PM

Garn
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Slalom Mentor
From: Alpine, Utah
Registered: Thu, May 17, 2007
Posts: 139
Skis At: Utah Lake
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Ski Stalling on Offside turn

Thanks Travis and everyone.  I think I will concentrate first on the elbows like you suggested.  Then I will see what happens and then determine if I need to adjust the fin.

Garn

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