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#1 Tue, Jun 29, 2010 3:37 PM

miski
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Slalom Mentor
From: Saline, MI
Registered: Wed, May 21, 2008
Posts: 114
Skis At: Jepawhit, Lyons, SkiTec
Foot Forward: Left

Bubble Buoys II

Steering clear of other thread here - looking specifically for feedback on installation and maintenance of bubble buoys.

Posts I've read so far regarding use of new buoys don't seem to indicate any unusual maintenance issues, but MI Pro Tour event, there were definitely some problems w/ buoys coming loose and/or caved in.  Not sure what configuration was w/ sub-buoys & bungees over there - maybe it wasn't suited to BB's?

Also, what is deal w/ burping buoys as shown in Goode video - if you let too much air out, can you pull up buoy to let some back in w/o having to redo bungee length?

Thx ahead for any help!

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#2 Tue, Jun 29, 2010 4:33 PM

Killer
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From: Toronto, ON
Registered: Sun, Apr 5, 2009
Posts: 137
Skis At: Ontario
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Re: Bubble Buoys II

honestly if you're not using them for tournaments just fill the turn buoys with water.   I can see the bubble buoys being an overall better system, but marginally.  I have struck the water filled buoys and finished my run, that's all I care about. I can't understand why someone would spend so much on a bouy... $5 is already too much IMO...

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#3 Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:24 PM

2gofaster
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Slalom Mentor
From: Cypress, Tx
Registered: Sun, Jun 1, 2008
Posts: 337

Re: Bubble Buoys II

If you let out too much air or a ski going over a buoy pushes out too much, then you just take a deep breath, go under, and blow up into the buoy. It fills back up without issue. 

Personally, I think the buoy top is not thick enough.  I could see a need for them to go midways between their current thickness and what a conventional buoy is.


Shane Hill

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#4 Wed, Jun 30, 2010 7:22 AM

Garn
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Slalom Mentor
From: Alpine, Utah
Registered: Thu, May 17, 2007
Posts: 139
Skis At: Utah Lake
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Bubble Buoys II

To quote Dave Miller from thewaterskiforum:

Wow! who is this guy thats complaining about the Goode bubble bouy??? I have been skiing in competition for 25 years and anyone that makes an attemp to help us ski safer is a hero to me. (Dave Goode)
Handle guards, bubble bouys what ever it may be congradulations to those that have develpoed the idea and produced the product. Those that talk about it and do nothing except threat to Sue those that actually help make our sport safer need to get off thier lazy ass and produce a product!!
I cant stand people that are so useless and lazy that they threaten to take legal action against somene that actually gets the job done.
Our world is so messed up today just because of that Sue everyone mentality!!what a joke.
As for water filled bouys they are NOT as Goode as the Bubble Bouy developed by Dave Goode. The water filled Bouy is a Mass that is traped inside an enclosed Bouy, it will not displace very well when hit by a ski. A Goode Bubble Bouy is an open cylinder meaning there is no bottom in it. It has an 8 inch opening so when it is struck by a ski the water and air passes out the bottom with zero force. Sorry that wont happen with a water filled bouy.
Put the two bouys side by side in the water and hit them with your hand and you will soon learn how phsics and common sense works!!!

Dave Miller

Well said Dave,

Garn

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#5 Wed, Jun 30, 2010 10:45 AM

AndersonSkiTeam
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Regular
Registered: Tue, May 13, 2008
Posts: 33

Re: Bubble Buoys II

I kind of hoped that by going to the Bubble II thread I would not see posts from 3-4 individuals that ruined the last thread.  I guess I was hoping to much.  Here's hoping they will keep their comments to the Bubble 1 thread.


Ski Naked...No Falls, No Balls

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#6 Wed, Jun 30, 2010 2:08 PM

StevenHaines
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From: Canyon Lake Ca.
Registered: Mon, Jun 9, 2008
Posts: 152
Skis At: Canyon Lake, Ca.
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Re: Bubble Buoys II

pretty good vid about the bubble buoy.

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#7 Thu, Jul 1, 2010 9:11 AM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
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Re: Bubble Buoys II

-> Thomas Wayne, david38off and ScotChipman are banned from this thread... don't bother posting on this thread, it will be deleted.

After having skied 2 rounds with the bubble buoys this past weekend in michigan, here's what I noticed:

1) flimsy
2) overpriced
3) warranty??
and 4) they don't stay where you put them!

The 12 bubble buoys used in michigan collapsed repeatedly over a one day event. Nick Parsons stopped skiing in both preliminary rounds after his 35 off pass to have the boat crew go fix the buoys. When I skied I noticed some of the bubble buoys riding high and not maintaining a proper buoy form (collapsed / misinflated).

The good:
Hit a buoy = less chance of injury.

The bad:
You'll never remove chance of injury... you can still get hurt. If the bubble buoy does its job correctly, it means you need to now go fix the course.

If you are THAT worried about hitting buoys, then get a bubble buoy and enjoy your extra maintenance time.

Perhaps someone other than Goode will release a better bubble buoy, but if you want my *subjective* opinion, save your money and wait for version 2.0, wherever it comes from... Alaska, or Utah, etc.


PS not sure how well these buoys work with a portable course.... seems like a headache.

FURTHERMORE some of us over the years have learned that hitting buoys usually results in injury. So we have trained to not hit buoys, but to rather go around them... or inside of them, as the case may be. Armed with the knowledge that I could hit buoys without injury in Michigan, i did, and the buoy sunk. Great!

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#8 Thu, Jul 1, 2010 12:12 PM

2gofaster
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From: Cypress, Tx
Registered: Sun, Jun 1, 2008
Posts: 337

Re: Bubble Buoys II

We somewhat noticed the same thing at the Big Dawg, Wade.  Had to stop a few times and work on the bubblebuoys. I think two had to be outright replaced.  The general consensus between skiers that I heard was that they felt fine to hit, but most people seemed to want to wait to see if they were made more robust before buying a set for their lake.


Shane Hill

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#9 Thu, Jul 1, 2010 3:41 PM

ToddF
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From: Kennewick, Wa
Registered: Wed, Aug 5, 2009
Posts: 134
Skis At: mudhole
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Re: Bubble Buoys II

Thanks Wade!  Your analysis is awsome. 

Way to put non debatable closure to this topic.

Todd

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#10 Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:23 AM

MChilcutt
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From: South Jordan, Utah
Registered: Tue, Jul 15, 2008
Posts: 277
Skis At: Utah Lake
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Bubble Buoys II

Good move WW. Appreciate your first hand non bias 2 tourny days experience with the bubble thingy.
MC

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#11 Fri, Jul 2, 2010 8:08 AM

kellychipman19
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Registered: Mon, Apr 27, 2009
Posts: 2

Re: Bubble Buoys II

Wade, Good to hear that you do agree the bubble buoy is safer which is what Dave Goode was going for! I work in the medical field and an ankle injury will cost you a lot more than a bunch of bubble buoys. My husband skied in a class C tournament with the bubble buoys that ran around 50 tournament sets in one day and not once did they have to adjust, repair, or replace any buoys. I would agree that the bubble buoy may not be as sturdy as a regular buoy but think the price is reasonable and the improved safety and peace of mind will be worth it for some people, not all.

Wade, were the bubble buoys set up properly in Michigan? It is very likely they were not being as it was a new site and the bubble buoys were flown in last minute. I heard they were not properly able to set up the bubble buoys at the Big Dawg which resulted in a few problems you would no normally have.

Last edited by kellychipman19 (Fri, Jul 2, 2010 9:03 AM)

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#12 Fri, Jul 2, 2010 8:30 AM

Killer
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From: Toronto, ON
Registered: Sun, Apr 5, 2009
Posts: 137
Skis At: Ontario
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Bubble Buoys II

Thanks for your practical analysis Wade!

we are on a portable course in over 100' of water, bubble buoys would not work & cost more than our mainline.  We loose buoys occasionally so the cost is completely unfathomable...

I think pushing the safety aspect of skiing is great, but IMO we want to get more people involved in our already outrageously expensive sport.  For some reason people have been using the regular buoys with great success for over 40 years.   Things should evolve faster than that IMO, but...

public water sessions, reducing costs and portable courses are the ONLY answer to our shrinking sport. not $1500 carbon custom skis and $40 buoys.   keep skiing on your private lakes with brand new boats and see how many people you have to ski around your bubble buoys in 10 years!

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#13 Fri, Jul 2, 2010 9:07 AM

MChilcutt
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: South Jordan, Utah
Registered: Tue, Jul 15, 2008
Posts: 277
Skis At: Utah Lake
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Bubble Buoys II

Kelly Chipman posting on PSC!!!! is that really you kelly???? lol
MC

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#14 Fri, Jul 2, 2010 9:13 AM

Jmilford
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Rookie
Registered: Wed, Aug 19, 2009
Posts: 3

Re: Bubble Buoys II

Wade, thanks for the report, it is always valuable to see what the perception of a new product is from others.

Now here is the rest of the story.

The bubblebuoys are designed to have enough upward force to keep a course in alignment, whether it is a fixed or portable course.  Each course is set  up differently, so as bubblebuoys are being installed on an existing set up, it is difficult to know what you’re going to run into while installing a new buoy that hangs down about 18 inches.  I personally installed the bubblebuoys  at the Big Dawg event at The Lakes of Katy and had to get “creative” to secure each buoy, as the sub-buoys were not installed low enough to allow proper installation of the bubblebuoy.  We did have a buoy pop up and increase its height during the competition, and in fact, it happened while I was skiing.  We found that the hook that is used to secure the nylon rope at the sub-buoy slipped, so we corrected the problem and tied a knot in it, so it would not happen again.  This hook is not part of the bubblebuoy, it was a hook that the Lakes of Katy were using to secure their water filled bouys.

The same problem happened out at Placid Waters.  Nick Parson’s installed the buoys out there and noticed that the hooks that secure the rope to the sub-buoy were not locking into place as they should and needed to be replaced, however, he did not have anything to replace those hooks with, so he installed them and hoped for the best.  The existing hooks did slip a few times during the event, allowing the bubblebuoys to increase their height.

The original buoys at The Lakes of Katie were filled half with water, so as we replaced those buoys with bubblebuoys, there was a significant difference in the upward force the bubblebuoys placed on the hooks in anchoring system.  This is why one of the hooks, slipped and popped a buoy up.

In both cases, the buoys worked perfectly, it was the anchoring system and hooks that failed.  As you can imagine, it is difficult to plan for everything as a new buoy design is being installed on a course that has been using traditional or water-filled buoys for years.

There is also a misconception out there that I would like to clear up.  The bubblebuoy’s dome is made out of the same material that traditional buoys are made out of and are actually a little thicker, so the durability should be at or better than a regular buoy. 

Just wanted to clear that up, as I know this is a new product that will need to prove itself over the long term.

Ski safe!

Jeff Milford

Last edited by Jmilford (Fri, Jul 2, 2010 9:16 AM)

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#15 Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:41 AM

kellychipman19
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Registered: Mon, Apr 27, 2009
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Re: Bubble Buoys II

Mark, The above post was my first post, I don't have the time like Scot.

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#16 Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:33 PM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Bubble Buoys II

KellyChipman19 wrote:

Wade, were the bubble buoys set up properly in Michigan? It is very likely they were not being as it was a new site and the bubble buoys were flown in last minute. I heard they were not properly able to set up the bubble buoys at the Big Dawg which resulted in a few problems you would no normally have.

Hey Kelly great to have you on board here. It was the Goode Skier's responsibility to set up the buoy so I would imagine that they were postiioned properly, originally... this was not a set up issue.

JMilford wrote:

The original buoys at The Lakes of Katie were filled half with water, so as we replaced those buoys with bubblebuoys, there was a significant difference in the upward force the bubblebuoys placed on the hooks in anchoring system.  This is why one of the hooks, slipped and popped a buoy up.

Right. I think that's more of what the problem was in Michigan... there's a greater force on all the course hardware so it's more prone to breakage / slipage, etc. Half that, and it seems like the other half of the problem is air escaping from the system out the hole in the bottom of the "bubble".... in the same way you would "burp" the buoy to get it set right, I believe this happens while skiing.

Ever heard that "THWAP!" when a skier goes around the buoy? Our regular buoys (if attached to the bottom with bongee or surgical tubing) get pulled down. A skier's wake is at least 18 inches deep at the buoy. I've seen the buoy move down into the skier's wake before. Its sort of cool, but my point is that the bubble buoy is open at the bottom so the air water combination is going to be in some sort of flux. An easy fix in my mind would be to seal the water in the buoy, an idea discussed before.

In our insignificant minature little water sports industry I think it's just sort of whatever you want to call it to ask $36 for a buoy that is whatever you would say this product is.

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#17 Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:56 PM

EdJohnson
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Slasher
Registered: Fri, May 8, 2009
Posts: 56

Re: Bubble Buoys II

Jeff,

I plan to replace our Water Buoys with the Goode Buoys and would like to know what the ideal height of the sub-buoy should be below the surface for the Bubble-Buoy to function properly.

Thanks,  ED

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#18 Sat, Jul 3, 2010 9:12 PM

miski
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From: Saline, MI
Registered: Wed, May 21, 2008
Posts: 114
Skis At: Jepawhit, Lyons, SkiTec
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Bubble Buoys II

Yah - I second the question on a recommended course hardware setup for bubble buoys - this would be great info for anyone planning to try them out.

On losing air, maybe most of the bottom opening could be closed off w/ a disk that has a port in it for water to escape when hit, but reduce the likelihood of losing the air. The port would have to be big enough not to restrict water displacement on impact so buoy would still collapses easily.

Wade, Jeff, etc.. - thanks for the useful info.

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