Deprecated: Function set_magic_quotes_runtime() is deprecated in /nfs/c07/h01/mnt/111479/domains/proskicoach.com/html/forum/include/common.php on line 58

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /nfs/c07/h01/mnt/111479/domains/proskicoach.com/html/forum/include/common.php:58) in /nfs/c07/h01/mnt/111479/domains/proskicoach.com/html/forum/header.php on line 31

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /nfs/c07/h01/mnt/111479/domains/proskicoach.com/html/forum/include/common.php:58) in /nfs/c07/h01/mnt/111479/domains/proskicoach.com/html/forum/header.php on line 32

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /nfs/c07/h01/mnt/111479/domains/proskicoach.com/html/forum/include/common.php:58) in /nfs/c07/h01/mnt/111479/domains/proskicoach.com/html/forum/header.php on line 33

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /nfs/c07/h01/mnt/111479/domains/proskicoach.com/html/forum/include/common.php:58) in /nfs/c07/h01/mnt/111479/domains/proskicoach.com/html/forum/header.php on line 34
This might help you ski better. / Pro Ski Coach Water Ski Forum
Water Ski Coaching from Professional Waterskiers at ProSkiCoach.com

Announcement

We've Moved

The forum here @ PSC has been fun, but we're going to transplant it in much more fertile pastures.

If you already have a PSC account, use your email address to Request A New Password to get started @wetJacket

#1 Sat, Jun 19, 2010 5:33 PM

BudMan
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Sandy Run, SC (Near Columbia)
Registered: Tue, Nov 24, 2009
Posts: 126
Skis At: Bud Lake
Foot Forward: Left

This might help you ski better.

I have made some observations that might make you ski better. I am not skiing as well without my baggie dry suit. I think it was like a parachute slowing me down in the turn. Since taking it off I have been devoting a lot of time trying to figure out what I need to do, short of skiing with a my dry suit year round. Before taking off skiing for 3 plus years, I could constantly run -38 and run an occasional -39 on a 2000 CDX Adrenaline. Now back on the water at age 53, I am struggling and have only run a few, very few, -38s. In watching a lot of the prosí videos I believe that most spend twice as much time losing speed as they do generating it. I also believe that most split the course into two sides. One side to gain speed and the other side to lose it. I hear people talk about how far past the wake to pull. Watch closer and I think you will see that most of the better skiers do not pull past the center of the wake. And take your stop watch and see if you agree that most 36 mph skiers pull for 0.7 (+ or -) second and the next 1.4 (+ or -) seconds is spent slowing down. The exception is, I noticed at -39 and -41 the pull is slightly longer in time and distance. Look at videos of your self with a stop watch and see what you find. There are not a lot of 34mph skiers for me to time that I could find, but I did time a video of Steve Schnitzer (28 thru 41 off) that he has posted towards the bottom on his home page. http://www.schnitzskis.com/ In watching him and timing him, I think he breaks the norm. He is so efficient that his times are more balanced, which makes good sense. Why generate speed then get rid of it. For a while recently, I would watch his video before skiing and try to ski like him. I am also a 34 mph skier and became relatively consistent at -28, -32 and some times at -35, but no way could I run -38 trying his style. I wish I could but I couldnít. I think he is much stronger than he appears in the video. He looks like he is putting no strength in his pulls, just an efficient path through the course. I also noticed that his ski rides and turns with a tip high attitude. I feel like my tip has to go down to turn, but then bites too much so I start putting too much weight on my rear leg, them the ski does not slow down and the result is a wheelie and my turn does not connect to my pull. This poor technique will get me through -35, but I want to get back to smooth -38s. I have tried different skies and different adjustments but I am pretty convinced that my problem is not under my feet, it is between my ears. I hope some of this can help some of you and spark some dialogue that will lead to improvement for all of us. I would like to see some input from some of the really smart people out there.


Life is great! Enjoy every minute!

Offline

 

#2 Sun, Jun 20, 2010 2:30 PM

EdJohnson
Karma:   
Slasher
Registered: Fri, May 8, 2009
Posts: 56

Re: This might help you ski better.

Bud,

You have brought up some good points in your observations, especially about splitting the course in half. It is all about efficiency of movement. Two rules to remember are: (1)  It isn't lean behind the boat that generates acceleration but lean in the direction of travel that generates acceleration. (2) It isn't angle that gives you speed but speed that gives you angle.
Having spent a good part of my life flying Jet Fighters with two Combat Tours you learned your life could depend on "Energy Maneuverability," which translates to the Slalom Course as "Efficiency of Movement," thus keeping your speed up. Also, from driving Formula Race Cars up through Indy cars, I learned a lot about the importance of proper setup for the track and conditions you race in. Plus once again, the importance of sustaining your speed and energy at all times.
Since retiring three years ago I have devoted a significant amount of time to bringing all these concepts to the Slalom Course. Laying out the Slalom Course as a six turn race course and asking myself how I would setup the car and drive it. As an example a race term called "Trail Braking,"  translates directly to "Counter Rotation."  Also setting up the Race Car for tight consecutive turns would entail Negative Camber and High Downforce which translates to Length and Depth of the Fin plus Wing Angle.
Finally, what I came up with is a form of Slalom I call "Quantum Pendular Dynamics."  With two primary concepts being, "Sequential Center of Mass Projection," and "Sustained Angular Momentum."  I could speak for hours on this subject and it continues to be a work in progress.
As an example, you were correct in dividing the course in half. Think of the first half as the downswing of the pendulum where you want to GAIN your momentum and the second half, the upswing, where you want to SUSTAIN your momentum. Two good sources of info concerning this are Schnitz's article, "The X Factor "and Chris Rossi's articles, "Skiing the Impossible Line" and " The Power Triangle." Both available on Wade's website ProSkiCoach.Com
Hope this may help in some manner and continue to observe and think outside the BOX.

Best Regards,   ED

Offline

 

#3 Sun, Jun 20, 2010 7:43 PM

Thomas Wayne
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
Registered: Sun, Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 228

Re: This might help you ski better.

EdJohnson wrote:

[...]
As an example, you were correct in dividing the course in half. Think of the first half as the downswing of the pendulum where you want to GAIN your momentum and the second half, the upswing, where you want to SUSTAIN your momentum. [...]

I agree with this basic characterization, and have always said that understanding pendulum physics is important to understanding slalom skiing.  However, one point no one seems to mention is that the last "half" (so to speak) of the "upswing" involves some understanding of how a "double pendulum" behaves.

Here's an interesting video that show an uncontrolled double pendulum:



The difference between the random, chaotic behavior seen in that video and the way our body/ski behaves at the end of the rope is determined by how our ski interacts (by choice or by chance) with the water.  But from the edge change through the hook up, the ski rope itself acts as a primary pendulum and we (skier & ski) act as a secondary pendulum - with the handle being the pivot.  This is one reason why "Butterfield's Law"* (among other writings) offer good insight into how to use pendulum physics to our advantage.

TW
(*refers to a forum article written some years ago by Bruce Butterfield - asserting that one important thing separating upper-echelon skiers from the also-ran is how long they keep both hands on the handle before releasing to extend during the turn.)

Offline

 

#4 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 6:07 AM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: This might help you ski better.

The Dbl. pendulum also exemplifies the the perfect Golf swing. (at least between the shoulders and the club head) This also is most of what separates the pro's from the week end warriors. The ave. guy swings the club more like a Baseball bat and lacks the club head speed and sweet spot contact point of the pro's. Not to mention, the ave. guy try's to achieve this with a tight muscler grip and brute force. Flailing away like a wind mill. While the Pro grips it lighty and effortlessly Rip the Ball efficiently with the use and effect of the dbl. pendulum...

I can indentify with Budman's turn example. If I set the ski up so that it will have more acceleration It doesn't want to decellerate very well. If I move the bindings fwd. or reduce the DFT it stops well, but is not quick enuf cross course. I would Love to run my Bindings back more, but I tend to get too much ski out in front of me aft. the apex and it gets unstable and wobbly and will at times wheelie, the Line will sometimes even go under the ski right B4 the hook up and dump me instantly.

For me, I think it's a real flaw in my technique that likes to feel the tip down and stable clear through the turn. I've found that w/o enuf tip rise at the end of the turn it is almost impossible to fall back smoothly into a Good Pull position. These things make me herky/jerky and a bit stop & go.

I'm also guilty of sporactic Handle control and Handle positioning coming into the Buoy... (and about 100 other things as well!)

Last edited by h20dawg79 (Mon, Jun 21, 2010 6:10 AM)


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

Offline

 

#5 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 6:24 AM

staks21
Karma:   
Local
Registered: Mon, Dec 22, 2008
Posts: 6

Re: This might help you ski better.

Well this topic really hit a nerve for me!


So what about the new to the course skier who is trying to run 15 off at 30 MPH.  Do these principles still apply?  I feel like I am pulling to long and then rushing my edge change thereby increasing the slack in the rope.  Should I still only pull until about half way through(between both wakes) and when should I let go of the handle?  Also, What do you do with your hands after you edge change but before you let go of the handle?

Offline

 

#6 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 7:15 AM

Killer
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Toronto, ON
Registered: Sun, Apr 5, 2009
Posts: 137
Skis At: Ontario
Foot Forward: Left

Re: This might help you ski better.

at 15off and slower speeds the pendulum effect is not there "as much", but it is still there. All the more reason to be in the right alignment and body position, esspecially through the acceleration phases.  You generally do have to pull longer for 15off because you are not able to load the pendulum enough and thus are not able to create as much speed out to the buoy.

A common traight with long line skiers myself included is pulling to long when we get to -22 and -28, you must have much better timing, load later and use the pendulum to your advantage more than -15 as at the longer line you can pull just about whenever you want and run the pass

focus on proper body position and movement at 15off and slower speeds, with adequate body position you will be able to run the 15off passes effortlessly, then shortening it to -22 and beyond the pendulum effect becomes that much more apparhent.

Offline

 

#7 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 7:50 AM

BudMan
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Sandy Run, SC (Near Columbia)
Registered: Tue, Nov 24, 2009
Posts: 126
Skis At: Bud Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: This might help you ski better.

Thanks for the link TW. I have never seen that before and was very fascinated by it. I agree with you and Ed about pendulum comparison and have used it as an example in explaining slalom course skiing in the past to others. I used an example describing getting from #1 to #2. Picture yourself lying on an inner tube out by #1 turn buoy as a boat speeds past. Picture there being a 40í rope connected to the tube and a loop at the lane (path of boat) for some sort hook in the boat to connect to as it passed. As the boat grabs the loop and pulls you on the tube, you would move somewhat in direction of the wake and down course, which you need to get to #2. Now picture apply any pressure on the rope after passing the center of the wake; you would be working against the natural tendency of the boat pulling you back to the wakes. I try to think of that side of the course being free of the boat until I connect out of the turn.

As interesting as the double pendulum is in the link, I canít quite picture it correlating with slalom skiing. (i.e. could a double pendulum work with a section of rope as used in skiing? or skiing with a stiff bar as used in the double pendulum.) The double pendulum has two pivot points whereas a rope has an infinite number of pivot points. Also, and possibly more importantly, I think the double pendulum is so wild acting because some of the actions and reactions are from energy transfer through pushing unlike a rope where there is no pushing, but only pulling. I truly enjoy thinking about these sorts of things.

Please everyone, share your thoughts.

We progress faster through communication.


Life is great! Enjoy every minute!

Offline

 

#8 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 8:25 AM

BudMan
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Sandy Run, SC (Near Columbia)
Registered: Tue, Nov 24, 2009
Posts: 126
Skis At: Bud Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: This might help you ski better.

Staks, in my opinion you can divide the course in half and get the same pendulum affect at -15, however, you MUST be in the proper proportion. (length to width) You MUST ski the course to imaginary buoys that are about 12 to 15 feet wider than the real turn buoy. Remember, this starts with the width of the pull out and carries the whole way through.

As for the hands and handle; feel strongly connected to the handle in a relaxed way (body core to handle). You let go because you have skied away from it and your inside arm has become an extension of the rope. There is nothing wrong with skiing with both hands on through the course and it can be beneficial with some training exercises.

Also Staks, since you are new to the course, there is some information on this site that Wayne has dedicated only to Power users. I would encourage you to spend the one dollar a week to gain access to that information and the other features for Power users. Wayne puts a lot into this site for all of us to take advantage of for free. It feels good to show him we appreciate it with that little single dollar a month. But you donít have to; he welcomes everyone because he promotes the sport to keep it alive.


Life is great! Enjoy every minute!

Offline

 

#9 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 9:01 AM

jamisonsbrodie
Karma:   
Slasher
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Sun, Mar 1, 2009
Posts: 72
Skis At: Lotus Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: This might help you ski better.

Staks, IMO at 15off-30mph, you will need to pull past the second wake due to the lack of angle/speed that is created at that level of skiing.  Focus on body position coming off the ball.  Put the handle on your outside hip and hold that past the second wake.  The more you can do that, the more angle and speed you will carry through the wakes.  The mistake most skiers make when they are learning the course is that they let up through the wakes, and then lean again after them.  This only loads the rope like a rubber band right before the buoy.  Your strongest position at 15 off  should be right before the wakes and carried through them.  As the line shortens, and the boat speed increases, the two-side effect comes into play due to the increased cross-course speed.  You need to generate the speed earlier than you currently are.  When you get to the ball, try to sit on it(thanks Wade Cox), especially on your onside.  This will drop your hips and roll the ski over.  It will feel goofy at first, but it really works.  Good luck and welcome to the addiction.

Offline

 

#10 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 9:34 AM

Thomas Wayne
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
Registered: Sun, Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 228

Re: This might help you ski better.

BudMan wrote:

[...]

As interesting as the double pendulum is in the link, I canít quite picture it correlating with slalom skiing. (i.e. could a double pendulum work with a section of rope as used in skiing? or skiing with a stiff bar as used in the double pendulum.) [...]

I think you would understand it better if you read the Bruce Butterfield article I mentioned earlier.  Unfortunately, that article (in its original form) seems to no longer exists - except in the archives of guys like me who saved it to their own hard drives.

However, a partial hybrid editing of that article (mixed in with other information by the same author) can be found here: http://ballofspray.com/tech-articles/87 … le-control

Sadly, this more current article contains only a tiny glimmer of the original "Butterfield's Law", but in the original article the concept of double-pendulum physics (without being called that) was far more evident.

Note a couple of points that may be gleaned from the above article addressing your concerns:

1) when the rope is loaded it acts in a similar manner to a rigid arm of a pendulum;  for this reason the functional pivot point for the "double pendulum" is the handle

2) your characterization of the skier being "free of the boat" beginning at the centerline is not entirely accurate for many top slalom skiers; while they may not be actively "pulling", the rope remains loaded and they maintain pressure against it until the release - at which time they employ techniques that mimic some aspects of a double pendulum.

At least one top ski coach teaches that your ski needs to be on a pulling edge from spray-to-spray; outbound, that's about 8 - 10 feet past the second wake.  This coach is 50+ years old and regularly skis into -41' in tournaments; from the boat I've personally watched him get 3 balls at -41', and I know he's run a full -41' in practice a number of times.

The most important information we can take from Bruce Butterfield's writings (and from the teachings of the coach I am referring to) is that the longer we are able to stay connected to the boat (through the handle/rope), the better we will ski.  Being "free of the boat" from the second wake to the ball will ultimately NOT take you where you want to go.

TW

Offline

 

#11 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 10:41 AM

staks21
Karma:   
Local
Registered: Mon, Dec 22, 2008
Posts: 6

Re: This might help you ski better.

Fantastic reply's and a great article- it really makes sense for the new to the course skier.  I am wondering if I need to try to learn proper postion first by not letting go of the rope because it sounds like I really don't need to at 15 off.  I have been to ski school a few times and the coaches that I worked with still wanted me to let go of the handle but this is probably not needed right now.  What do you guys think?

Also yes I need to become a power user as it will be more beneficial for me and for the movement altogether!

staks

Offline

 

#12 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 10:50 AM

jamisonsbrodie
Karma:   
Slasher
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Sun, Mar 1, 2009
Posts: 72
Skis At: Lotus Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: This might help you ski better.

staks21 wrote:

I have been to ski school a few times and the coaches that I worked with still wanted me to let go of the handle but this is probably not needed right now.  What do you guys think?

staks

I would say yes, but only briefly,  because it will keep you from starting your turn with your shoulders.  Letting go allows you to keep your upper body square with the boat, and the sooner you can master that, the better.

Offline

 

#13 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 11:19 AM

Thomas Wayne
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
Registered: Sun, Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 228

Re: This might help you ski better.

staks21 wrote:

Fantastic reply's and a great article- it really makes sense for the new to the course skier.  I am wondering if I need to try to learn proper postion first by not letting go of the rope because it sounds like I really don't need to at 15 off.  I have been to ski school a few times and the coaches that I worked with still wanted me to let go of the handle but this is probably not needed right now.  What do you guys think?
[...]

At -15'  the handle itself can go outside the buoy line and be more than 20 feet wider than the buoy - your ski can go even wider.  Obviously, from a purely geometric standpoint, there's no "reach" required.

The reason your coaches have encouraged you to let go of the handle [with one hand] is to keep you from developing the difficult-to-break bad habit of rotating your outside shoulder around into the turn.  Because you have so much extra width available, letting go is not strictly necessary, but if you keep both hands on you'll have to learn to "ski past the handle" by allowing your outside arm to stretch across your body while your shoulders remain facing downcourse.  This can be a bit awkward, and because you'll eventually need to learn to let go anyway (at shorter lines),  your coaches undoubtedly figure you might as well learn now.

In my opinion, the "secret" to learning to let go with one hand at long line (-15') is to keep your body upright with very little lean and very little arm extension through the turn.  The only real purpose to letting go at -15' is to prevent your outside shoulder from being pulled around in the turn, resulting in blocking the finish of the turn and in undesirable (and unneeded) deceleration.

Imagine you are standing at a concert holding a camera in your hands in front of you about waist height.  Now imagine that your buddy next to you asks you for the camera.  You don't want to turn away from your direct view of  the stage - not even a little bit - so you let go of the camera with one hand and simply extend it out to friend with the other hand, without turning your shoulders even slightly toward him.  He's standing a little farther away than you thought, so you extend you arm out a little farther to give him the camera... but just as the camera reaches him he says: "Nah, forget it." so you pull the camera back in to your waist (and waiting other hand).  The entire time you've never looked away from the stage and never turned your shoulders toward your buddy.

I realize that's a goofy analogy, but take a moment to stand up and act it out and see what it feels like.  If you were skiing into the 1-ball, your imaginary buddy was on your left; at the 2-ball he's on your right.  That's what letting go at -15' should seem like, and as the rope gets shorter you'll discover that your feet [ski] will swing out away from your reaching hand kind of automatically, and your extension will be more pronounced.

Just keep looking at the stage, 'cause you never know when that hot chick at the mic might have a "costume malfunction"...

TW

Last edited by Thomas Wayne (Mon, Jun 21, 2010 11:21 AM)

Offline

 

#14 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 11:36 AM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: This might help you ski better.

staks21 wrote:

Well this topic really hit a nerve for me!


So what about the new to the course skier who is trying to run 15 off at 30 MPH.  Do these principles still apply?  I feel like I am pulling to long and then rushing my edge change thereby increasing the slack in the rope.  Should I still only pull until about half way through(between both wakes) and when should I let go of the handle?  Also, What do you do with your hands after you edge change but before you let go of the handle?

Many times with Slalom, you have to Back up to the last move and/or the one B4 that to begin to find the answer to your question or problem. This is one of the Reasons that you must start the course with a Good Gate shot. Even if you miss the Gates a little early, the angle and speed Must be there to get out to #1 early. @ -15/30 mph, most of us will have to have a Longer pull. (30mph makes it even Harder because unless the ski is a "Wide Ride" or you are 130lbs. the ski is sinking and NOT running at it's potential.)

WTS, Joel @ 15off Has a Really Great video of Seth Stisher running 15/30, 15/32, and 15/34. Clearly demonstrating if you have a techinically sound Pull, you still only need to pull to the center of the wakes, where the edge change then happens automatically and he then carries More then enuf speed into the turns.

BUT, he also does Not Bleed off anymore speed then necessary going thru the turn and he doesn't Bobble his body positioning and he maintains perfect "Rope Managment"... He transitions seamlessly from one segment to the next and this in turn gives him a great start into the next pull and so on. One Hand washes the other...

So, "Pulling too Long" can be the result of poor pulling tech. and/or having a less then stellar turn that preceded the Pull. And as you get begin to get behind in the course it creates catastrophic failure...


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

Offline

 

#15 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 12:30 PM

miski
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Saline, MI
Registered: Wed, May 21, 2008
Posts: 114
Skis At: Jepawhit, Lyons, SkiTec
Foot Forward: Left

Re: This might help you ski better.

EdJohnson wrote:

flying Jet Fighters with two Combat Tours, you learned your life could depend on "Energy Maneuverability," which translates to the Slalom Course as "Efficiency of Movement,"

Ed - First, thanks for serving USA!!  Second, I like the reference to Boyd's EM theory very much. I've studied this and am certain it is key to slalom (first principle) that almost all other moves, techniques, etc.. are knowingly or not aimed to accomplish. Would like to hear more of your thoughts on this. My take is that keeping speed up is key to less planing angle & side slip angle which buys efficiency - delaying load until you are moving faster across the wake by keeping speed/energy up in turns results in less drag and more acceleration. Alternatively, loading up early out of turn when you are slow (or because you over slowed and/or lose balance from disconnected line load) kills energy efficiency. I also think staying connected to rope (pendulum) as your path arcs up to side of boat reduces lateral force requirement from ski, which reduces ski side-slip angle and preserves energy.

On how this applies to longer lines - having progressed up to max speed (34mph) and started down the rope over the last 2 years, I believe there is a lack of theory specific to lower level skiing. The keys for very short line discussed here are great to incorporate in your skiing for when you get to a more advanced level, but the priorities are significantly different. It is very hard not to overload early at long lines because the angle of the rope pulls you relatively straight down the course. Higher turn speed helps a ton, but to do this, you have to let your ski cast out at a very extreme angle to the course centerline (more so than short line) and end up with handle way down-course relative to your mass center & even further from your ski. This makes the smooth fast arcing passes the short-line people are going for really tough. I've been wondering if it wouldn't be better to just ski more buoy-to-buoy on the handle in good position and get through to at least -22' at max speed as quickly as possible to where the advanced concepts become top priority. One last thing on skiing slower speed - it sure seems that planing angle vs speed should be compensated w/ setup so skis behave somewhat close to the way they are supposed to - like maybe bindings .5-.75" forward (relative to 34/36mph setup) if you are working on 30mph so you arenít just plowing around on the tail and actually could get a feel for a carving turn.

Great thread going here everyone - really enjoying it. Especially like more advanced skiers talking theory as applies to less advanced skiers Ė THANKS!

Offline

 

#16 Mon, Jun 21, 2010 7:34 PM

EdJohnson
Karma:   
Slasher
Registered: Fri, May 8, 2009
Posts: 56

Re: This might help you ski better.

Miski,

Great point and observations. I believe it is better to start at 22 at a slower speed and work your way up from there. While it is true that speed gives you angle and it is best to keep your speed up through the course, what seems to never be discussed, is that a greater speed gives you greater angle with LESS LOAD.
When driving Race Cars it is a basic understanding to always keep up your speed and momentum through the course. The Slalom Course is no different than a 6 turn Road Course. While every Slalom Article I have read always talks about acceleration beginning at the hookup with two hands on the handle, no race driver would ever begin accelerating at the finish of a turn. I have attended some of the best Race Schools and all teach acceleration is from the apex. I have been working on this for some time, with three different methods, and believe it is the most efficient way to ski. I feel it is the key to efficient short line skiing in order to maximize sustained angular momentum resulting in maximum carryout and sequential Center of Mass projection to the apex.
Good luck in your continuing quest for excellence. Think outside the box.

Best regards,   ED

Offline

 

#17 Tue, Jun 22, 2010 7:37 PM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: This might help you ski better.

Ed, I like your example of accellerating from the Apex. And that No driver would wait to begin their accelleration until the end of the turn.

The pendulum effect would be like a play ground swing, swinging back and forth. The Dbl. pendulum would be more like that same swing with person on board pumping their legs and moving their COM in unison to gain and sustain momentum.

The Apex in Slalom should be a lot like the bottom of the swings travel, and when done properly Like in the video of Seth @ 15/30, You can really see the dbl/ pend. effect as you watch his momentum and also Hear the speed control react to the Line load far past the apex and then only to about the center of the wakes... -accellerating from the Apex, w/o herky/jerky stop & Go's.

My turns are more like the Guy on the swing that comes flying down towards the bottom like a bat out of Hell and then arbitrarily drags his feet in the sand and has to work like a fool to get his speed and Momentum back again. -Only to drag them again @ the Next Ball!yikes

I think I need a Handicap parking sticker for my Dbl. Pendulum...roll


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

Offline

 

#18 Wed, Jun 23, 2010 7:36 AM

BudMan
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Sandy Run, SC (Near Columbia)
Registered: Tue, Nov 24, 2009
Posts: 126
Skis At: Bud Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: This might help you ski better.

Has anyone else timed some videos yet? If so, what have you found?  If my timing is accurate with 0.7 on one side and 1.4 on the other, then doesnít that mean that the 36mph skiers that I timed are slowing down to Ĺ their accelerated speed in the pre-turn?

I agree that skiing a constant speed through the course makes good sense. And, skiing as straight a path as possible to each buoy makes sense.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line and to travel a greater distance in the same time frame means going faster. But to me, it doesnít look like that is what the pro are doing.

What do you see when you watch them?

Is it possible to ski a buoy to buoy path at extreme short line?

I wish some one would do a direct overhead flyover video of someone skiing all loops with the full width of course in view. Surely everyone would benefit from this.


Life is great! Enjoy every minute!

Offline

 

#19 Wed, Jun 23, 2010 7:52 AM

EdJohnson
Karma:   
Slasher
Registered: Fri, May 8, 2009
Posts: 56

Re: This might help you ski better.

Budman,

There should be no straight lines period. Think more in your mind of figure eights, with the ski constantly moving in relation to the handle. If you can accelerate off the apex you can do one seamless turn form the apex to carryout off the second wake.
Carryout is key to shortline skiing. It creates width and distance to the next buoy. This is what the pro skiers have mastered. Watch Chris Parrish as a prime example.

Check Six,    ED

Offline

 

#20 Wed, Jun 23, 2010 8:11 AM

miski
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Saline, MI
Registered: Wed, May 21, 2008
Posts: 114
Skis At: Jepawhit, Lyons, SkiTec
Foot Forward: Left

Re: This might help you ski better.

On the race car analogy, there are a lot of similarities. Tire/vehicle slip angle and ski side slip is a good oneÖ
One thing is much different though - on track it is much easier to maintain spatial orientation and the ability to see/think & react for path ahead Ė in linked corners drivers eyes are several turns ahead or at the extent of visible track. With the track bordered by grass/gravel, curbs, elevation changes, there are way more visual references to keep oriented - I am nowhere close to on-track vision trying to spot little buoys 100-500 ft away on a pancake flat single color surface. This also seems like a big difference between water & snow skiing too.

On ski path & speed:
> wider and earlier makes for the longest skier path = good skiing
> longest path between the entry & exit gates = highest average speed (because elapsed time is constant)
> therefore: highest average speed = good skiing!

Buoy-to-buoy is shortest path & lowest average speed - and turns are tighter and therfore slower, so speed varitaion through path would be higher.

Offline

 

#21 Wed, Jun 23, 2010 8:45 AM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: This might help you ski better.

Budman, the time reference of 1.4 and 0.4 wouldn't necessarily correlate to 1/2 the time ='s  1/2 the speed. That is the Biggest difference between Me and the Pro, My Speed probably does slow down equal to 1/2 of my speed (or worse!) and the Pro only slows minimally... While using all of his momentum and most of his speed into and thru the corner.

Miski, I agree with the shortest line being the slowest and the longer line being the more effecient, faster and EASIER path...


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

Offline

 

#22 Wed, Jun 23, 2010 10:00 AM

Thomas Wayne
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
Registered: Sun, Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 228

Re: This might help you ski better.

Budman,

You may want to buy a new stopwatch.

Currently, the very best "laboratory" analysis we have publicly available comes from the West Coast Slalom video.  In that video frame-by-frame times, rope loads, angle of travel, etc. are all very fully studied.  Among other things, Marcus Brown is shown at -32' and his times - accurately recorded in 1/100th of a second intervals - are noted.

From the apex of one turn to the middle of the wake clocks out at 1.07 seconds.  From that middle point of the wake to the apex of the next turn takes another 1.47 seconds.  This is nowhere near the 1:2 ratio you are proposing here - it's more like 42:58.

Simplified, that's around 2:3, but you also have to take into account that the actual ski path traveled during the "preturn" phase is much longer than the ski path traveled during the "pulling" phase.  This accounts for much of the time difference, a fact also discussed in that video.

TW
(PS: Within that video a time analysis of Terry Winter at -41' is also discussed; Suyderhoud states that the ratio of time spent on each side of the wake at that line length approaches "about 50:50".)

Last edited by Thomas Wayne (Wed, Jun 23, 2010 10:14 AM)

Offline

 

#23 Wed, Jun 23, 2010 1:29 PM

2gofaster
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Cypress, Tx
Registered: Sun, Jun 1, 2008
Posts: 337

Re: This might help you ski better.

I try to apply some of those same roadracing principals to my skiing since I have a background in it. Where my mind jacks it up is this..... in road racing, the fastest, most efficient driver will almost always do all of his braking prior to turning the wheel in, then let the cars forward momentum roll to the apex, then get back on the gas.  Where I have to be careful is that if I dump all my speed before the ski arcs back, I really have to stretch and be patient enough to let the ski clear the buoy.  Width wise I don't have issues. It's keeping the velocity up enough to eat up the space in front of the buoy that sometimes hurts me.  I feel like I want the ski to actually reach it's slowest point about half way between where it starts it's arc back and the apex, maintain that speed  to allow me to eat up that space and then I can accelerate off the apex like I want.


Shane Hill

Offline

 

#24 Wed, Jun 23, 2010 2:12 PM

BudMan
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
From: Sandy Run, SC (Near Columbia)
Registered: Tue, Nov 24, 2009
Posts: 126
Skis At: Bud Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: This might help you ski better.

TW,
Itís my old eyes, old finger and old brain, not the stopwatch. Thatís why I wanted some of you to time it also to compare. I think all of this helps, but is there some magic pill I can take to just ski better. I will admit though, I am not skiing as well as I used to, but I am having a lot of fun trying. Some of you make it look so easy.

Everyone,
How do these correlate? Speed on either side of course, time on either side of course and lineal distance from lane buoys to lane buoys at which point you cross to the other side. i.e. length is 134.5 feet; with a smooth S, do you cross at 67.25 or if you crank a turn do you cross at 34 feet?


Life is great! Enjoy every minute!

Offline

 

#25 Wed, Jun 23, 2010 3:51 PM

Thomas Wayne
Karma:   
Slalom Mentor
Registered: Sun, Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 228

Re: This might help you ski better.

On an older Gordon Rathbun instructional video it was determined that Andy Mapple regularly crosses the course at very close to the same point he crosses through the entrance gate - relative to the next buoy.  In other words, Mapple crosses about 88 feet up-course of the next ball (actually, it was right at 27 meters up-course, IIRC).

I know that I don't do that, simply because I don't do anything in the slalom course the way Andy Mapple does it - but would that I could... would that I could.

TW

Last edited by Thomas Wayne (Wed, Jun 23, 2010 4:51 PM)

Offline

 

Board footer