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#1 Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:50 PM

ChuckL
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Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

I've been struggling for ever trying to get a decent offside lean, and it's killing my progress.  Wade's article properly describes my issue and I've yet to be able to master it.  When I do, I can get into 28 off 34mph, which rarely happens, most of the time it's 15 off 34mph.  Do you guys have any suggestions, drills, or mind joggers while leaning, that would help to get into this position on the offside lean.  When finishing a turn do you bring the handle low on the hip, then lean?  I'm left foot forward and leaning on the onside is really good. 

http://www.proskicoach.com/slalom_artic … ble_angle/

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Chuck

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#2 Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:02 PM

h20dawg79
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Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

A pic. is worth 10,000 words! Both in terms of advice and example... Got any vid. you could upLoad? That would be the very Best place to start.


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#3 Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:53 PM

ChuckL
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Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

I had a bunch of pictures that I lost when my harddrive crashed.  They weren't in the folder that is regularly backed up.  The only picture I could find is the one attached which is from two years ago in the spring coming through the gates.  The pictures tells a lot about the lean or the lack there of.  I'm just struggling to get the shoulders back.  No videos, but if I could get passenger in the boat, I could get some more pictures, but it would be a couple of days.

http://www.proskicoach.com/forum/uploads/4298_through_the_gates.jpg


Chuck

Last edited by chuck l (Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:56 PM)

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#4 Mon, Apr 5, 2010 5:33 PM

WadeWilliams
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Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Chuck, thanks for posting. Your position looks pretty strong... although I do agree that there is not very much body lean in the picture you posted.

chuck wrote:

When finishing the turn do you bring the handle low and then lean

Yes and no. You want to time your turn so that you can fall into the body lean that you want -- if you hook up with too much cross course direction and insufficient body lean then you will not be able to sustain your angle, as your picture shows.

If you are able to time the body lean correctly, you will be able to ski into the body lean you want while still feeling the controlled cut that you are feeling now with minimal stress...

Essentially your problem stems from too much unsustainable angle out of the turn, followed by an attempt to not overload the rope.

Minimal angle is essential in learning this technique. A lot of folks say to just pull wicked hard and throw the fist, which works for the most part, but when you master the position correctly, lean happens without work and you are able to ski with the speed you need.

For more please look into getting a virtual coaching lesson with me, where I'd be happy to explore your questions in much more depth, with pictures or video and over the phone.

http://www.proskicoach.com/pros/wade_williams

Thanks!

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#5 Tue, Apr 6, 2010 12:08 PM

miski
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Slalom Mentor
From: Saline, MI
Registered: Wed, May 21, 2008
Posts: 114
Skis At: Jepawhit, Lyons, SkiTec
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Hi Chuck!  Good to see you on PSC forum - I'll video you once we get the club boat in or we can put the tracker mount on.

Wade (& Colin!) have been helping me a bunch w/ the same. The typical scenario that kills me and that really shows up in video is:
1) reach back for handle early
2) rotation back to handle stops ski from turning and raises tip for a few feet
3) while ski stops turning, I fall into more lean (like front washing out on MX bike)
4) then tip comes back down, bites, turns me way more than intended and I get stood up (or worse bent forward or arms jerked out)

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#6 Tue, Apr 6, 2010 4:17 PM

h20dawg79
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From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Chuck, I think Wades got the perfect plan with video and virtual coaching...

It's impossible to tell what went on from the apex to the 1st wake. But, as Wade said you Look pretty Good. Your shoulders and Eye's are level and your not pulled way fwd. The Handle is fairly low. Just can't really tell whats going on with the hips and knees. (Blk. on Blk.)

If I were looking at me, I would like to see my shoulders a little more squared to the Back of the Boat and my Lt. hip up a bit. Which would allow for a Better lean and a Lower handle. But, it's hard to tell how you got to your pos. in that pic. and whether this is indicative of all of your off side turns...

I bet Wade could correct it starting at about the apex with a little virtual coaching...smile


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#7 Tue, Apr 6, 2010 4:58 PM

BudMan
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From: Sandy Run, SC (Near Columbia)
Registered: Tue, Nov 24, 2009
Posts: 126
Skis At: Bud Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Hi Chuck,
Looking at the picture, the ski looks completely flat going through the wakes and you look like you have no lean at all. I have an inexpensive suggestion.

Screw an eyebolt into the wall under the TV with a ski handle attached. Put in some ski tapes from some pros. Stand up a door mirror like 12 x 48 from a local Walmart. Pause the tape at various points and put your body in the same position while checking it in the mirror. Develop this muscle memory. You may need to make a C frame out of 2x4s to put your feet against. Two of the boards will be 90 degrees to the wall and one will be parallel. If you dont want to put a hole in your wall, you can make the whole framework as a freestanding unit. It will just take more time and materials. You can even make it fold up if you want.

Remember your whole skiing sits of a foundation and that foundation is your body position. Build it strong and it will support a lot.


Life is great! Enjoy every minute!

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#8 Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:09 AM

RuralHack
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Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Isolate the feel of the pull as it comes up your arm and over your shoulder (one shoulder for one-way; then the other),  Make both shoulders feel equal and you will have just sides. Arc'it or Park'it smile


Grew up at a ski school; started teaching old men like me at around 8 years old... I was a better teacher than my coach so I got to ski more if I taught them. wink

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#9 Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:18 AM

HO410
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Posts: 345
Skis At: Outlaw Lake
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Hack, I have not heard that tip for quite some time. Been there, done that: focusing the load through one arm only complicates the matter. Trent and Seth (in person) Rossi (in his Waterskier articles) and Wade (on this website) advocate balance load through both arms.

If you greatly bias to your inside arm, you will limit angle and increase line load. If you bias to your outside arm, you will generate too much angle and must increase load to maintain or get pulled out. Neither option is great, especially going a direction that you are already a little unbalanced.


At my site, we had a skier that it just did not look like he should be struggling with -15'. When we asked what he was thinking he said that his plan of attack was to focus the load on his inside arm (arm closest to the wakes) and try to, "Hide the handle from the boat." He felt like a big strong man through his onside pull, but his offside was flirtation with disaster. When he began to share the load with both arms, and I'm not being melodramatic, he ran -15' that day and was close to getting -28' in a matter of weeks.

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#10 Fri, Apr 9, 2010 12:29 PM

ChuckL
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Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Guys,

Thanks for the comments, but sage advice from my 77 year old ski partner here in Florida suggested thinking "lean" as you are crossing the wake.  Today I tried that repeating "lean, lean, lean", and it worked very well.  My leans where more equal in each direction and were comfortable.  It showed up in the results and started to give time to work on the turns.  A little more practice at it than we'll bump the speed back up to 34 from 32.

Regarding the back arm pressure, that doesn't work well for me.  I end up tensing the muscles in that arm, consequently can't lean. 

Chuck

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#11 Sat, Apr 10, 2010 6:54 AM

RuralHack
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Posts: 11

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

HO410, I do not care what ppl advocate: I am not a machine programed by anyone.

You seem word sick about skiing HO410...

Skiing is a feeling business and if you can not isolate the pull and play with it... you will never progress at a rapid pace.

It is a drill and we use drills to teach muscle memory.

About muscle memory HO410: if you had none you would have the coordination of a baby every time you wanted to walk...

Watch out for the skiing police!

Last edited by RuralHack (Sat, Apr 10, 2010 6:55 AM)


Grew up at a ski school; started teaching old men like me at around 8 years old... I was a better teacher than my coach so I got to ski more if I taught them. wink

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#12 Sat, Apr 10, 2010 7:17 AM

Deke
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From: Telluride, CO
Registered: Thu, Apr 3, 2008
Posts: 126
Skis At: 15/34
Foot Forward: Right

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Here we go again....

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#13 Sat, Apr 10, 2010 2:10 PM

EdJohnson
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Posts: 56

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Just for what it's worth, I try hard to not get pulled through the arms at all. If you can ski the hip to the handle and establish an open shoulder lean to the boat you will be pulled at the Center of Mass and not through the arms or shoulders. This allows the BOAT to do the work for you. NO PULLING INVOLVED,  just leverage.
Read Rossi's article, The Power Triangle, for some great guidance.

Respectfully,  ED

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#14 Sat, Apr 10, 2010 3:26 PM

h20dawg79
Karma:   10 
Water Ski Sage
From: nashville,tn.
Registered: Fri, Oct 17, 2008
Posts: 562
Skis At: Old Hickory Lake, TN.
Foot Forward: left

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

This is for "Some People," Not everyone!

IMO, I think extra Leading or trailing arm pressure might be needed for "some people" who naturally ski with a Biased arm. This "pressure" may need to be felt in one arm on the "on-side" and the other arm on the "off-side" because of a severe imbalance caused by the skier's "overly dominate," or Biased dominate side. Thus, for "some people" it might "Feel" like more pull through the other arm,  because there is now a little more Conscience pull effort being made to help Balance and equalize the pull between sides. (because they had not ever been pulling equally and Balanced in the 1st place.) Of course non of this makes any difference if the skier is not 1st doing what Ed outlined above on position and technique...

I'm with Ed on the word "LEVERAGE."  You could probably have Leverage and not be very Efficient. But, you could Never be Efficient and not have Great Leverage... I get a Lesson on Leverage every time I watch a top Female skier Swerve... smile


"Warning" -the Surgeon General has determined; That the preceding statements accurately reflect the views and opinions consistent with "DSS" (Delusional Slalomitis Syndrome) a highly contagious life altering condition... (Handle with Extreme care & Patience)

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#15 Thu, May 13, 2010 7:34 PM

WWKAIN
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Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Hello - I have skied for years and i seem to be bouncing between -15 and -28. I am taking this year to work exclusively  on body position - Particularly on my off side. After reading this advice and listening to better skiers, I think I am getting "stood up" on my off side because I load up the line before getting the handle low and before I am leaning. I am working on it. I was considering getting some bindings with an aggressive forward angle like HO Approach to see if that helped me to keep my knees bent. Will it make any difference? What do you think?

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#16 Fri, May 14, 2010 5:23 AM

BudMan
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Slalom Mentor
From: Sandy Run, SC (Near Columbia)
Registered: Tue, Nov 24, 2009
Posts: 126
Skis At: Bud Lake
Foot Forward: Left

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

I think you are wise to work on proper body position. I think that those boots would work better for someone that already skis with that forward lean rather than force you to stand that way. I would definitely try before buy if possible. I would be surprised if you like them.

To improve: Video yourself and compare yourself to other videos of skiers you want to ski like. If you can put two monitor side by side and freeze frame, you will see more. Go back on water with camera and work on small pieces at a time to get your form right Then Compare again. You may also benefit from a few lessons. Achieving a lot of small goals will get you up to your big goal. Good luck and ski safely.


Life is great! Enjoy every minute!

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#17 Wed, May 19, 2010 6:59 AM

WadeWilliams
Karma:   15 
Pro Skier
From: Lynn, MA
Registered: Tue, May 15, 2007
Posts: 1087
Skis At: Not short enough
Foot Forward: Right
Website

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

I dont think that boots with aggressive forward lean will solve the technique problem, although it might put a bandaid on it temporarily, it is a technique issue, not an equipment one. The boots may help put you in a position to get the handle lower before loading up, but better technique will help more.

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#18 Thu, May 20, 2010 5:50 PM

WWKAIN
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Posts: 3

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

Thanks for the input. Sounds like I am going to stick with a traditional rubber binding for now. Today I did pullout drills on both sides and then dropped in as if I was turning in for the gates. I am right foot fortward. I have never tried that on my off side (as if going thru the gates from right to left) This allowed me to focus on getting into body position without the distraction of the turn. It seem to help and I nailed a controlled, progressive lean on a few of them.  I will keep working it. Thanks again.

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#19 Fri, May 21, 2010 11:59 AM

steveb
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Posts: 6

Re: Sustainable Angle By Wade Williams

That sounds like a drill I need to do...as soon as we get the boat in smile

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