FalconEddie wrote:

Body angle compared to the water--as a novice skier, I've been told not to overdue this one.  But it seems that in order to get the handle in the pocket and get the forces more linear, you would need to be leaned close to the water, otherwise (standing more straight) the rope is being pulled away from your body.

I'd like to hear more about this one as well.

WadeWilliams wrote:

[...]

When I say that, I mean from the overhead perspective. Since the boat is pulling us down the lake, even if you feel like you're skiing at 90 degrees (like Andy Mapple looks some times) you're still getting pulled down the lake so that your ski's path is never ever going to be more than 60 degrees.

This is an important aspect of slalom that I have studied for some time, and addressed in an earlier thread, writing:

ThomasWayne wrote:

In the approximately 1.1 seconds it takes a skier to travel from just outside the buoy line to the center of the wake the boat has traveled 50+ feet downcourse.  Because of the pendulum-like path of the ski handle (and therefore the skier), the skier travels about 32 feet downcourse over the same period of time*.  The line from a buoy to a point on the centerline that is 32 feet downcourse describes an angle of about 51 degrees.  So, if a skier finishes his turn right at the buoy he cannot actually obtain a cross-course angle of much more than 50 degrees.  Because we usually finish a turn further downcourse (and closer to the wake) the angle can be as much as 60 degrees at shorter line lengths.  However, no matter how sharply a skier turns (or how hard he pulls), crossing the wake at 90 degrees is absolutely impossible - as it would require essentially moving from the finish of the turn to centerline in zero seconds.  Until someone suspends the laws of physics that will not be possible.

I think that leaning out over the edge of the ski with the upper body takes on different significance, depending on when the skier does this leaning.   When the skier leans over hard to the inside of the turn with his upper body only - sometimes referred to as "dropping the shoulder" - it may look to the casual observer as if the skier is trying to force more edge angle onto the ski.  In reality, I think this over-leaning is an instinctive response to being too slow at the apex of the turn; breaking sideways at the waist allows the ski to flatten out, maintaining a bit more velocity.  Simultaneously, the skier's upper mass moves to the inside of the arc, compensating for the centrifugal forces produced by the tighter radius of a slower turn.  The result, unfortunately, is a less efficient, larger radius turn that finishes with the skier off balance on the ski.

I also think the same type of upper body over-leaning in the "pull" phase produces similar real-world results, but for different reasons.  During the acceleration phase, if the skier has taken too much angle - again, often caused by insufficient velocity during the turn - excessively leaning the upper body [only] away from the boat lets the skier avoid being yanked upright while at the same time flattening the ski to allow more down-course slip, which relieves some of the pressure produced by the excess angle.  Again, we end up with greater effort for lesser results.

Often these two errors follow each other and are both caused by the same failure to carry enough speed into and through the turn.  I think understanding the cause of these errors is important because correcting them requires a change earlier in the run.  It's very easy to spot when someone is dropping their head or shoulder in the turn/pull, but knowing that the error is occurring won't help if we don't know the cause of the error.  Most of the time if you're constantly screwing up at the same point in your run you need to look earlier in the pass to find the cause - and in the case of bending your upper body out over the edge of the ski I believe the cause is usually failing to maintain speed after the wakes and into the turn.

TW

The ski slips in the water like a controlled trick ski side slide. So the more you have angled your ski TIP, the better.  That way when you switch over to off-the-rope mode (i.e 2nd wake or edge change) the wider the arc will be, the earlier the turn is done. This is what separates the top elite skiers v.s the mid rangers. 38 & up is very demanding in terms of protecting direction of the ski tip. The ski has to have front end contact and be loose enough/grip enough at the back end too - to generate speed in the slip process and be pointed outbound.

I did a youtube video split screening with Willy on this. The first edged has excellent footage (best i've seen) of the above description.

you wanna ski short this is what you need to do. hope that helps.

sorry mr.wayne you must have misunderstood. off-the-rope mode is a term i use and means transitioning off of load from the boat - you still will have two hands on the handle. so i do certainly agree with terry. in fact the more your ski is pointed outbound through this phase you can ride longer with two hands and let the handle out as you wish, keeping a tight line.

also conventional grip skiers will have more control over this transition phase as well.

TW said:

"When the skier leans over hard to the inside of the turn with his upper body only - sometimes referred to as "dropping the shoulder" - it may look to the casual observer as if the skier is trying to force more edge angle onto the ski.  In reality, I think this over-leaning is an instinctive response to being too slow at the apex of the turn; breaking sideways at the waist allows the ski to flatten out, maintaining a bit more velocity.  Simultaneously, the skier's upper mass moves to the inside of the arc, compensating for the centrifugal forces produced by the tighter radius of a slower turn.  The result, unfortunately, is a less efficient, larger radius turn that finishes with the skier off balance on the ski."

Thomas - why do you hate my style of skiing so much?

Just kidding. When I read this I was thinking "ugh. Been there, done that."

Jim

tjo wrote:

How much does the offside vs. onside affect the two body positions in these pics?  Seems to my "unprofessional eye" that these pics are comparing apples to oranges a bit.

I included the photos for the sole purpose of showing two skiers who are both at the top of the game, but exhibit opposite opinions regarding the benefit of coordinating grip preference with leg orientation.  As seen in these photos, both Scott Tynan and Chet Raley hold the handle as if swinging a baseball bat left handed, yet Tynan skis left foot forward and Raley skis right foot forward.

No other purpose intended or implied.

TW

Last edited by Thomas Wayne (Fri, Feb 5, 2010 9:42 PM)

TW,
I didn't notice the grip orientation until you pointed it out the second time (silly Me) Wouldn't that alternate grip help the skier to be more open to the boat during the wake crossing on the skiers offside? Or am I all messed up here?
As for being on the back of the ski more, I think that is more in how the ski is set up than how you're standing on the ski. In Chris' pull out though, it does look like it something that he is intentionally doing. Again, no absolutes! 

It's pouring down rain here and it's killing Me!!!!

Last edited by StevenHaines (Sat, Feb 6, 2010 5:38 PM)

ouch!