How does the power triangle apply to a 15 offer? I say that because we often rush turns, have poor outbound momentum preservation, and have trailing lower body movements out of the turn (of course, we want to get rid of that stuff but if we did we wouldn't be skiing 15 off!) In order to get into the power triangle, I'm assuming that you have to have a good shot through the gates, correct outbound momentum preservation and tight line out to 1 to carry the correct amount of speed through the turn in order for the ski and your hips to come back around to the PT position- then rinse and repeat 5 more times. Otherwise, it's a bit of a fight to wrestle the handle down and force yourself into a locked elbow position. Focusing on getting that elbow and handle down WITHOUT good speed through the turn and a hip-leading turn exit can lead to an exaggerated shoulder-forward position (hunkered down) across the wake, if we can even get the handle down physically. I think this is why you see such a gap between handle and hip with beginning course skiers. So, crucial to the PT is not only the triangle itself (outside hand, handle, trailing hip) but all the events leading up to that turn exit. I think that's both what the article and the OP are also saying but I just wanted to clarify that. If you are hip-back out of the turn, then try to apply the PT, you're going to get a power OTF! Take a look at my video below. I think I'd have to fix a lot of other stuff before my body will naturally lock into the PT on turn exit.
Last edited by Jhughes (Fri, Jan 8, 2010 9:19 AM)
First off, Great original post by 38orbust.
shot through the gates
I'd say that's the first problem... I think you have too much emphasis (push/pull) on that gate cut.
correct outbound momentum preservation and tight line out to 1
... Is very hard to get if you don't have the the power triangle engaged during your turn in.
othwerwise, it's a bit of a fight to wrestle the handle down and force yourself into a locked elbow position
... Look at your spray in the youtube Freeze-frame. You've got one arc that started... then you caught the boat, and now the boat is ripping you down the lake. Three distinct different plumes.
The bottom line is that with an efficient turn in, there won't be fight to wrestle the handle. You'll have a taught line before you start your turn in, and you'll be able to move with your power triangle without actually trying to manipulate your arm position.... the idea is to move your body in a way that the position is natural, not fought for.
It's mostly timing.... rote and repetition in pursuit of perfection.
As long as you're trying to pick a gate shot instead of skiing your power triangle through the gates, you'll have a hard time feeling it in the course.
One more thought... @ 15 off, it is really easy to over pull / over lean.
That shot of Julien is @ 32 off. I think you are trying to pull more lean than this @ 15.... puts you in trouble. You shouldn't need more than 25 degrees of body lean @ 15, max.
Last edited by WadeWilliams (Fri, Jan 8, 2010 9:29 AM)
that last bit spoke volumes to me being pretty new to course skiing and never been coached, my bad, I never know when to pull out and at what time to start your turn in towards 1 ball. Also it appears I've been pulling out to far on my set up.
So much to learn so little time.
thanks for the insight.
What Wade is saying is correct.
* "What you start with is what you will end with, in the course."
* This "tempo" doesn't start when you turn in for your gates, it really should start when you pull out for your gates!
* Locking into the PT and having the proper body position behind the boat before the pullout for the gates is critical.
* -I will lock both elbows in behing the boat, which brings my hips up and chest out. A skier may feel a bit more weight distributed on his back foot when locked into this position.
* -Having the correct "pull out" for the gates, which includes proper speed, tempo, width, is critical to obtaining the correct speed, tempo, tight line, and "turn in" for your gates.
These are some of the same common things that Matt Rini worked with me on as well. I am especially glad to see Rossi, Matt and others talking about placing a little more wgt. or at least more emphasis on the Back foot these days. This has become such a misunderstood Grey/Tabu area, that I even started buying into the foolishness of Staying the heck off the rear foot!!!
I am not as wide as the 2,4,6 bouy line. I really don't pay attention to the bouy line. My concern is proper body position, proper width to establish the right tempo, speed, angle, etc. If I look down the buoy line it throws off my whole tempo.
Great point, I think too many people get others into trouble trying to advise others to get outside the bouys at all costs...
A Few Common Mistakes
-Pulling out for the gates way to hard/long, and being way too concerned with width, resulting in a slack rope, a rushed turn in, loading at the turn in and carrying too much speed through the gates. Usually if a new skier did 50% or less effort of his normal pullout, he would then be coming close to the right speed and tempo in his pull out.
-Adding extra effort through the pull through the gates causing to much speed.(excessive lean, dropping a shouder, dropping the hip, bending the knees, etc)
-Excessive bending of the knees through the wakes.(Causes seperation and loss of the PT)
-Excessive bending of the knees past the wakes.(Loss of PT, loss of speed, loss of angle,
loss of width = Narrow)
-Excessive bending of the knees in the preturn and turn which many times leads to over turning of the ski and a difficultly of regaining the PT for the pull. (The ski actually turns easier and better with straighter legs which still baffles me. I used to ski compressed and thought I had to bend my knees to have a great turn. Boy was I wrong.)
The above "Common Mistakes" should be "Copy/Pasted" and stuck on the medicine cabinet, the trailor hitch, the inside of the windshield (both truck & Boat) and the cieling right above the Bed!
Once again, what a skier starts with, he will usually end with...
A lot of great stuff to chew on!
Last edited by h20dawg79 (Sat, Jan 9, 2010 7:36 AM)
38, that was one hell of a response! My multi-year battle to lose the 15 off loop forever has included 5 trips to ski school, video coaching (from multiple pros), clinics, and tips literally from around the world, all documented on my website Fifteenoff.com (we'd love to see you there- shameless plug). I have pretty much heard it all, which is why I try to be careful of "silver bullet"-style advice and try to analyze it as much as possible. I think the PT boils down to efficient cross course acceleration and structural arrangement of the body such that loads from the boat are transferred to the water directly and efficiently. These are core slalom fundamentals These are also my biggest flaws, so I will definitely focus on it intensely in 2010, on and off the water. Even when I was running deep 34mph passes at 15 this summer, I did so with tremendous strain on my back out of each buoy.
I like the concepts--but started thinking about something. As a 15off skier, if I only lean 25%, then the line of the rope, line of my body, and line of my arms will have to be drastically different and make it tough to keep the elbows in. It seems that with high level skiers, all of these lines are close to the same with force going more down the direction of the leg rather than out from the body. I don't know if I'm explaining this right.
I use no, and am aware of no markers in the course to determine my cross-course angle. As for gates, pull out when the nose of the boat hits the 55s. Pull out past the 246 line, crank it back in when the swim platform passes the gates. Intensity in the pull out and turn in varies WILDLY from pass to pass, typically because I'm trying different things out all the time. Once in the course, I generally turn and burn. Once I get around 1, my mind generally goes blank in the course!
I'm sure the posts are quite lengthy, but on my Hero they all look like novels.
I've said this in respects to other Chris Rossi articles. What makes his articles so great is that he presents fundamental concepts but usually comes just short of telling you how to do it. So when I read this I see two major points. Handle close to you center of mass. Pull of the handle supported by your skeleton. With that concept, your physical and mental cues are personal.
The thing that impresses me most about Karina's vid is the lean that she has thru the wakes. She's not trying to pull out stumps, just riding the perfect line!
keep 'em coming 38! I'm liking your posts!