Thomas Wayne wrote:

I have to wonder how anyone can get good coaching from the driver, no matter how good a coach he is.

I know it may seem like an insurmountable task to be an extremely successful coach while driving at the same time, but I think the big misunderstanding is how important driving really is. As a driver and coach, your ability to understand exactly what the skier is doing actually increases (with lots and lots of practice). Your sense of touch as a driver needs to be much further ahead of the speed of light. Ask anyone who has driven full passes at 41 off and they'll tell you that anticipating where the skier is before they get there is the only way to be successful. The most successful driver/coaches are the ones that have thousands of hours behind the wheel, in addition to hundreds and hundreds of hours facing the other direction. When you're on this level as a driver and coach, your sense of touch on the wheel and through the seat of your pants can actually help a lot more than just simple eye sight.

Dont get me wrong, having a great coach's eyes on you is certainly a big help, too, but don't sell a coach short just because they're facing the other direction.

Tdub wrote:

But you're going to have some difficulty convincing me that any given [skilled] coach will not see more when he's sitting in the passenger seat.  At $75 - $125 per set I think I'd rather have my coach's FULL attention.  Call me silly.

not trying to convince you that the coach would be able to see more by not looking at you. I agree it is significantly easier to just be lazy and watch the skier. Driving and coaching at the same time requires about three to five times higher concentration. So, there is actually more focus on the skier this way. I'm not saying that everyone can do it. It's certainly exhausting to produce results in this model. 

Ps where are you paying $125 a set?!? I'm gonna go work there!

1) Actually, Wade, I often write several iterations of a post before submitting it - so I ultimately do more than “think twice” before posting.  For example, I first wrote this post in Word, and revised it six or seven times before bringing it into the forum.

2) The original topic was about finding off-season skiing and coaching in Florida, and the original poster specifically asked for:

“[...] any advice as to where I should go to ski as far as price, environment, coaching etc would be appreciated.[…]”

I'm also interested in off-season coaching in Florida, and I have this one additional coaching quality I'd like to find (a coach who devotes his entire attention to the skier).  I've never been very good at splitting hairs, but I'm having a hard time seeing how my input was  - in any way - "off topic", and I don't see how you can consider this a "new question"

3) Just so I understand your position, are you saying that the coach who drives the boat [in the slalom course] while coaching is the BETTER coach, while the coach who has a separate person driving is actually taking the easy way out and is simply "lazy"?  Is it your position that the best coaching comes from someone who coaches and drives at the same time?

4) It's your forum, and you can swing your stick wherever (and at whomever you want to), but putting me "on probation" for simply seeing things differently than you seems a little harsh.  No great wisdom or understanding was ever arrived at without a little respectful debate, but it's hard to have much diversity in a discussion if one has to constantly fear repercussions for simply disagreeing with management.

TW

A few random comments on driving/observing/coaching:

I have had the same concerns as Thomas in the past, and have definitely wished at times whoever was helping me at the time could observe instead of drive. That said, the first time I skied w/ WW at SkiTec, I was amazed at how much feedback about my skiing he provided from the driver’s seat, and how right on the suggestions were for what to work on next. I have been very happy w/ the gains I have made from WW coaching from the driver’s seat.

This summer, WW came and coached in MI. For me and some of the other guys he observed for several sets and then drove  for several sets because he wanted to feel the skier – he actually went back & forth between seats over the course of 3 days. While WW was observing and I was driving, I got some really great tips on driving. I think the other guys driving got some of the same.

I think some of the big-picture concepts that WW has drilled me on may be best evaluated by the feel from the drivers seat. Maybe the more detailed items on specific moves etc. are not as easy for a driving coach to observe and evaluate, but I've gotten some feedback and direction on specific details that were impressively accurate from the person in the driver’s seat.

Last - big mirrors – why don’t more people use the bigger mirrors?

WadeWilliams wrote:

[...]

Ps where are you paying $125 a set?!? I'm gonna go work there!

Um, actually, that was a bit conservative.  When I travel to Florida (S.C., TX, or wherever) for ski coaching I have no interest in seeing Disney World or GatorLand or whatever.  It's not a vacation.  I come for off-season immersion in water skiing and that's it.  The only things I'm interested in besides skiing is decent lodging and a gym I can get into on a walk-in basis.  I want the freedom of my own transportation so I also rent a car.

This winter I hope to come down for a couple of quick coaching trips (3 - 4 days on the water), and we're also going on a real vacation to St. Maarten in Feb, so that will add ~ another week of skiing.  On the short trips I'll expect to ski 8 - 10 sets, and when I add up airfare, car rental, lodging and food, and divide it by ski time my coaching exceeds a cost of $200 per set(!)

At those prices I want my coach's undivided attention, and I'm even willing to pay a little extra for a driver.  Out of those 8 - 10 sets if the coach wants to drive 3 of them I guess I'd be okay with that - but it would be for the sake of courtesy, not because I think it's better feedback.

And, as always, that's merely my opinion.

Most importantly to me, since I'm shopping for coaching sites, I'd be interested in knowing which coaches will primarily sit in the passenger seat when I'm on the water.  Does anyone have any feedback on that?

TW

Mostly the downhill ain't in FL

I keep my Trakker, camera, and computer in my car, everytime I go to the lake... so I can video and do review right then and there (after driving and coaching )

As far as where you can find a coach with a driver... I'd say anywhere. Just be sure to ask when you make your reservation. Most places are super accomodating to client's requests.

iowaskiiier wrote:

[...]
That being said...maybe there are some coaches that need a driver... but for the good coaches it doesn't appear so. 

Scott

On occasion I've been coached by pros who simultaneously drove and I've gotten great feedback.  I've also been coached by pros who didn't drive and have gotten virtually worthless advice.  In fact, here is an exact exchange I had with a very well-known retired Canadian pro skier turned coach (he had a driver):

[Coach] "You need to finish your turns more; you're not finishing your turns."

[TW] "Okay.  Um, how do I go about doing that?  I mean, what physical steps do I take to 'finish' my turns more?"

[Coach] "I don't know... just finish the turn more."

[TW]"Okay... uh, thanks.  Where do I pay...?"


This was at least 15 years ago, and several of us feel we got about the same value out of the event.  So obviously it's possible to get really bad coaching from a really good skier, even if he isn't driving the boat (this guy had been a world champion at one point).  We still joke about that particular coaching session.

In any event, I have yet to see anyone commit to the opinion that they would prefer that a coach be driving the boat.  I personally think it's physically impossible for someone driving the boat to devote as much attention to the skier's actions as someone sitting in the passenger seat. 

I'm not sure it's about the coach needing a driver; I don't doubt that skilled coaches can pick up a lot while driving.  But if I have the choice I will always want a separate driver - and since I'm the one paying the bill I'd have to think I DO have a choice.

TW

I personally would prefer to just let the coach do it the way he wants to... I'm pretty sure I'll get the best coaching by letting him make the call (drive and coach...or sit in observer seat).  Especially since I've been convinced they can drive and coach and still spot literally everything.    And from a financial standpoint, I understand that they probably don't want to hire a driver.... too much cost to add, which raises the rates, which most likely shrinks the pool of customers, which hurts thier "bottom line", drives them out of the biz, and now there's less coaches for you and I!!  You wouldn't think an extra $10/set would make a difference, but there's always a price breaking point for everyone.  And maybe it's more than $10/set??  Can't always just find "volunteer" drivers around - maybe sometimes - but not consistently, and/or there's probably liability/insurance concerns/costs as well.

Interesting topic, I do think there are a few people out there that could tell you exactly what you are doing right and wrong from just the feel of the boat. I know my regular driver/coach can do this..
Saying that: when you get to a high level of skiing the driver has to focus on keeping the boat straight. (??)
Ive been in the boat and the skier has asked what happened at “X”
“Dude I was just trying to keep the boat straight” If you have a hard, heavy skier I think having a copilot makes for a better job. The above scenario was at a very short setup with an older boat and someone that has been driving for about 3 years but skiing for close to 10 years.

Im used to having the 1 person in the boat , for some reason with another person in the boat it puts me off, inevitably driver & copilot talk and move about.. I start to think… “What are they talking about? I think I heard him say something about my knees?, maybe I need to bend them more, etc etc”
I always thought having a 2nd person in the boat is good, but having skied with some awesome driver/coaches I trust there judgment and 1 person is just fine.

(Then again there are some drivers I prefer over others, purely a trust thing though)

At the end of the day I think its more of a trust thing.. Having skied with a few guys im confident in there words and don’t have to worry.
I also wouldn’t go to a ski school and ski with someone I don’t know, or have heard good reports from.
I think when you have pulled enough people and got to an elite or high end level of skiing you can be an excellent coach and driver. for some of the guys id go so far as saying, if they don’t drive they have one less “sense” to give them feedback on your skiing.

I’m adding to my previous post - I knew I had left something out, but my brain shut down and I hit Submit    

I would take a driving coach w/ video analysis over an observing coach w/o video any day.

Like several people mention, reviewing video with your coach is an incredible help.  I think it takes the learning process full cycle. Going through my video in the SkiTec rowdy room was super cool, although a little embarrassing at times - You never look as good as you feel on video, but that's not a reason to avoid it. I also got to ski w/ Jim Kilsdonk a lot this summer and use the Dartfish analysis software which was very cool.

When you see yourself skiing, and ID the specific moves/positions for work that the coach was talking about, it really sets you up for gains in the next set. And while you’re back at it, sometimes you feel like you're making the changes on the water, but when you watch the next set of clips you find the big change you felt is only 10% of what it needs to be. Other times it shows you why the coach had you working on something other than most obvious problem you were feeling – like some subtlety several seconds earlier in the pass that was causing the issue you were concerned with. It's also a big help when your back home trying to commit the things you learned permanently to your skiing.

Most important for me, video (and coaching) helped me figure out what was breaking down when I skied poorly. I would have a few great sets w/ a lot of progress, ski bad for the next 6-10 sets, then I would hit it again a few times, then back to junk. I wasn't learning anything and basically feel like I wasted 60-70% of my skiing this year. Finally in August w/ the combination of video, coaching, and just sticking w/ it, I figured out what my biggest breakdown was, and now feel like I can regularly have consistent sets and work towards gains.

I have been to ski schools where a seperate driver and coach were utilized, and to ski with Wade several times where he was driving the boat and coaching at the same time.  At least for me, I have received more valuable coaching and input on my waterskiing from Wade than from any other coach I have been with.  So there is a committment to Wade as a single coach (driving and coaching)!

With that said, if it were very important to me to have a coach who had a driver, I would recommend Arturo Nelson in Miami. I have only been to Miami one time for a three day weekend ski trip.  But I came away with a good opinion of his coaching.  He did have a driver there every day and I assume this is common practice for him.  So TW might want to consider Miami as a winter ski haven if this is impt to him.  I have also been to Swiss ski school in Clermont Fl (near Orlando), and have received coaching with and without a dedicated driver.  I am sure they would arrange for a driver if you expressed that as a concern. However I personally feel that Wade is a superior coach to any other option I have experienced.  With or without a driver.   Hope this is helpful to you.

I've posted about this topic on other boards.  I am not a big fan of driving and coaching and I think in ways it leaves some guess work, but having read WAde's posts, I do concur that the feel is something that can come in handy.  I happen to think that it is maybe a good idea for a pass or two and not for the whole set, but each coach has his or her own way.  I don't do it much, but that's just me...I am a visual guy.  Yes, I can feel the effects of what a skier does based on the feel behind the wheel, but I feel as though I am guessing at the exact details of what they had done wrong.

There is no absolute answer.