Eagle vests do not offer good impact protection / Pro Ski Coach Water Ski Forum

Jim5 · #1 Thu, Oct 1, 2009 4:12 AM

The Eagle vest is a great feel, the front zipper is very easy, and it's the "home team" made here in Houston so I'm all over supporting it. BUT - as slalom skiers, we need little flotation, it's about impact in a fall (I'm not a jumper where that's a bigger issue). I recognize that falls are random and separated by small degrees. BUT - physics is physics. The focus on this vest has been graphics, cool colors, tight/snug fit, flotation and NOT the end result of impact. Possibly none of us has had that particular fall, but I finally did...the second time I wore the vest. I had a pretty standard fall rounding 2-ball, getting too much angle, and not being able to hold on. The handle gets pulled out of your hands, and you do a big-time belly-flop on your side into the wakes. This is not a cart-wheel, OTF, show-stopper. It's a standard every-day fall, that we all have in every set. I fell and felt one of the square blocks of foam on the front of the vest compress into my lower ribs. It was very acute. I thought to myself in that instant, "that hurt".
I had the same exact fall a week later while wearing my old molded foam vest (HO Phantom, similar to the HO Syndicate still for sale). I felt the sore spot (believe me, I could not lie on my right side for two weeks). but felt the molded foam panel distribute the energy of the impact around the sore spot and onto the rest of my torso. No damage done.
The separate blocks of foam sewn into the wetsuit material which look cool from the front, need to be somehow connected "behind the scenes" so the energy of a fall will distribute amongst them instead of concentrate on one of them. The molded foam types of vests are similar to the ones with the single large piece of foam in the front panel of the vest, except thinner with designer "bumps" on the front and back molded as figures which make the "cool look" and also add a little extra thickness. I presume that configuration is somehow strategic. But, that said, the knock-off look of the Eagle may achieve the same sort of look, but the design and technique is flawed. The panels on the front need to be one single piece to distribute impact. Instead, the separate blocks of foam concentrate the impact onto that one block of foam and have no way to distribute it beyond that area.
I'm not kidding, all these posts about back zippers versus front zippers versus pull-overs miss the point...these vests are primarily intended to protect us in falls and crashes. The primary function is NOT flotation, and it certainly isn't a fashion statement. I've skied with no vest at all, you don't need much help to float you before you pull out of the hole. Trick skiers don't wear vests at all (but impact from falls isn't their concern....twisted knees and near-drowning from a bad release-man in the boat is).
A vest needs to fit tight to the body, and absorb impact. One technique to absorb the energy of impact is thick foam. None of us want to ski with pillows strapped to our chests (interesting visual, isn't it?). The other technique to absorb impact is to use thinner material that is more dense and rigid (think plywood...another interesting visual). Stunt men in Hollywood use kevlar panels sewn or taped into their costumes to absorb falls and hits, in addition to using simple things like foam knee and elbow pads. The Eagle vest, and vests like it, use soft foam (molded foam is thin but firm, and also more expensive to produce), and sew it in designer patterns into colorful wetsuit material.
I saw Seth Stisher take a hard fall in Acapulco at Gordon Rathbun's site last December while wearing an Eagle vest. He couldn't ski the next day. He was goofing around skiing on a 1960's wooden ski at a whopping 30mph. This ski was not designed to change edges and turn like today's equipment. It bucked Seth off like an angry bull going into 2-ball the instant he changed edges. I'm not speaking for Seth, but, again, it wasn't an ass-over-teacup barn-burner of a crash. It was a belly flop. In my sole opinion watching this talented elite athlete take a face plant, this vest didn't protect him as a molded foam or single-piece front panel would have. But, he looked fashionable just before he went down.
I've tried to contact and set up a meeting with Chuck Gleason who owns Eagle. I'll follow up on this blog when we connect and post his comments.
This vest is priced the same as the molded foam types (like the HO Syndicate and one of the O'Neil vests). Same price point. At this price point, the Eagle is far inferior when it comes to impact resistance.
Bruise your ribs like I did? call me. I'll come give you a bear-hug.
On another point responding to a question on this blog site, molded foam doesn't absorb (much) water, so it won't get heavy as it gets wet. I'm not sure how dense the foam type in the Eagle is. It didn't seem to get heavy when wet.
If you never fall, you'll look great in this vest. If you're a mortal who's not perfect, don't wear this vest if you plan on falling. If you do fall, don't make it a big one. Jump off a step ladder instead. But wear proper protection.

Last edited by Jim5 (Thu, Oct 1, 2009 10:01 PM)

Jim5 · #2 Thu, Oct 1, 2009 10:00 PM

UPDATE - I met w/Chuck Gleason of Eagle Sports today in Houston. He told me that he had a lot of input on the design and making of his vests from some of the touring ski pros, and that comfort and flexibility was the primary desire, and that it was not designed or intended for impact protection or crash resistance.
I feel we have a fundamental difference of opinion here, mine being that crash protection is the primary need for a vest, but he's relied on the various pros for input, and was emphatic that this was their direction. I can't imagine when the pros fall at deep short line lengths that they don't fall hard, but maybe I'm wrong.
That said, we went out to his warehouse and experimented with different combinations of pieces that would achieve the same exterior look, but achieve my concept of better crash impact resistance. The concept is to glue the three front blocks of foam to a single sheet of foam the size of each entire front (left and right), essentially tieing them together physically. This will be a one-off custom vest. If it pans out, possibly I can get Chuck to offer it up on his website as a special order.

Last edited by Jim5 (Thu, Oct 1, 2009 10:02 PM)

TrentFinlayson · #3 Thu, Oct 1, 2009 10:57 PM

Jim,
Really sorry you received an injury while wearing this vest. It sucks when you get taken out of the game, even when it is only temporary. The fall that you are describing is the exact fall we had in mind when determining the foam panel sizing and location. Safety in this scenario was not a mere afterthought, I can assure you. The newest version of this vest features a single panel on the sides (the place most vulnerable during a popped handle or broken rope) to help absorb the impact on your exposed ribs. Secondly, we wanted to make this the MOST comfortable and maneuverable vest on the market. I think we nailed it; but as always, we are experimenting with new designs.
Hope you heal quick man,
TF

Jim5 · #4 Fri, Oct 2, 2009 3:45 PM

Trent - I learned you were a key contributor to this vest, glad to hear you have an update on the design. Chuck didn't show that to me yesterday, I'll ask him to see it.
There's no dispute, this vest is damned comfortable, you could wear it to the office. It's definitely a 100% home run in that dept. A minor enhancemnt will tie in the impact thing on the fronts. I'm not a shortline skier like you, so I knooooww you fall harder than I do. But I'm a 15-off bad-skier, and like Chuck said to me yesterday, "I fall down alot". I've never ever been hurt wearing my molded HO vest, and believe me, I've tested it repeatedly. Fortunately I've been able to keep skiing since my mediocre fall last month, sleep was another subject.
Chuck's barefoot suits are literally crash suits, because there's no margin for error when hitting the water at 45 mph. Makes us slalom skiers at 32 mph look like little old ladies. So, I'm confident he'll help us out on making a choice available for a little assurance on falls. I'm confident it can make this the perfect vest.
Hope things are good for you in San Marcos. I'm a neighbor of Jim Thompson's (aka, Jim2) here in Houston.

Jim5 · #5 Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:00 AM

After a meeting with Eagle owner Chuck Gleason, we discussed the vest and the need to connect the pads somehow to help with impact protection. The Bird of Prey vest uses 13mm foam. We decided to make the same vest with 9mm foam blocks to look the same from the outside, glued to a full panel of 9mm foam from shoulder to waste to "connect" the blocks together to distribute impact to the entire section of vest. That ends up being 18mm on the front panels, and the standard 13mm on the back.
I got the vest two days ago. It looks the same and is still extremely comfortable. I've not yet had a fall into the wakes, or fallen down the stairs while wearing the vest. At this point, the vest's comfort has not been compromised, I'll have to report back when I have that first hard fall to determine if we've figured it out and enhanced this vest's impact protection.

Garn · #6 Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:09 AM

Is this a one-of vest? Are they going to make it into their line? I would be very interested.

Garn

ColinCanski · #7 Mon, Oct 19, 2009 12:29 PM

Funny, isn't it. When you go out skiing, wanting to fall you don't, and when you don't want to fall, you do!

tjo · #8 Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:41 PM

I broke a rib 3 or 4 years ago in the exact same fall you described. I was wearing a coast guard approved vest with plenty of padding in the front. So, unless you've got some kevlar in there, I don't think there is any vest that will prevent all of these injuiries. Having said that, I applaud your efforts in talking to Chuck to develop another line that is more crash friendly and will hopefully prevent some of them. Like Garn, I am very interested to know if this new vest you are speaking of will be available to the rest of us. I'm planning on buying a new vest over the winter and was strongly considering the Eagle. A new Eagle line with additional padding would probably seal the deal for me. Thanks.

skibuddy · #9 Mon, Oct 19, 2009 6:02 PM

Hey Jim..I tend to crash... alot, send me one and I'll give it a good test!!!

Jim5 · #10 Mon, Oct 19, 2009 8:08 PM

The irony for me is, I've now skied 4 sets in it, and haven't fallen yet. Clearly I'm not skiing hard enough. The key point is, when I got hurt by the Bird of Prey vest last month, the fall wasn't hard. Had I been wearing no vest at all, I definitely would not have gotten hurt.
It is very comfortable, and because it's made of wetsuit material, it's nice and warm as our water temps are starting to dip into the 70's.
For now this is a one-of-a-kind custom vest, which Eagle charged me $50 extra for. They also said that it took more time than they thought, but it did get a lot of attention. That said, they'd be interested in producing it if there was a demand. Let them know.
Seth Stisher is interested in seeing this vest, too. He's coming to Houston November 1 to visit Eagle, and will also be doing a slalom coaching session, which will be based at Chuck Gleason's house. We will certainly talk about it.

I STRONGLY recommend you all contacting Eagle, call on their 800 number, and tell them you'd like to know more about the special vest they made for me. You'll probably talk to Larry. Do it before Nov. 1, and we'll discuss it at Chuck's house. I'm sure Chuck will talk Seth into purchasing some inventory for their H2Osmosis site if there's interest.

davemac · #11 Mon, Oct 19, 2009 9:28 PM

I would be very interested in the "upgraded" vest you speak of....especially if it gives a little more bouyancy. I sink like a bag of rocks (having no no natural bouyancy)...and would love to find a "hybrid" vest somewhere between the conforming and nonconforming.

Last edited by davemac (Sat, Oct 24, 2009 10:25 AM)

TaddSchreiber · #12 Wed, Mar 24, 2010 7:03 PM

Hey guys, just to let you know, I am putting together a group buy for a custom Eagle vest with a bit extra buoyancy.
It is going to be built like the womens vest, same padding in the front, thicker padding in the rear.
It is mainly for floating issues, etc.
it wont be 100% the same as the the vest Jim5 has had made, as I have seen that vest myself. But this one should be a more buoyant vest.
It will not push your forward while floating, as I have had that question asked to me already and I asked Chuck at Eagle about it
If anyone is interested, email me and I can get you on the list.
Thanks
Tadd
tadd at h2osmosis dot com

H2Oproshop.com

Thomas Wayne · #13 Wed, Mar 24, 2010 7:31 PM

TaddSchreiber wrote:
[...]
It will not push your forward while floating, [...]

Will it push me forward while skiing...? 'Cause I gotta get off the damn tail of my ski!

TW

kstateskier · #14 Wed, Mar 24, 2010 7:47 PM

Just reading this thread for the first time. I'm currently rocking an Oneil Guru vest, but have had the Jet Pilot, Straight line and several other vests... I must say I'm pretty impressed Chuck at Eagle has been so responsive to a skiers request! I'll definately be grabbing an eagle vest when my Oneil wears out... Doesn't hurt that the neon green matches my SS either

Nice work Jim, Chuck and Trent!

davemac · #15 Wed, Mar 24, 2010 8:14 PM

The fact that the product is made in the USA by a responsive company (that puts support and money back into the sport) have factored in my decision. I'm on your list, Tadd.

Last edited by davemac (Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:54 PM)